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Chapter 54 : page 132

Chapter 54 : page 132

Postby Kern » Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:21 am

Kel is helped back up to take on his challenge but it is for far less than he had hoped. His people won't be saved if he wins, all he get is one chance to kill the pretender.
Kel's side is the one doing the challenge. They're losing so setting condition for victory is hard to enforce. If you don't have the strenght to enforce anything , well, shit, you get nothing indeed. What truly make Sang fight is the expectation her own troops will remember her declining a challenge, an easy one at that, from a val she tells everyone has to die. Quain would have taken the challenge so she has to.
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 132

Postby James Rye » Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:25 am

Man, Kel can hardly stand. The only way he can win is if Sang does something stupid because she got cocky and he ends her in one blow. Else he dies and Ariel has to be the next one to challenge her.
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 132

Postby Ichi_Jigoku_Flujo » Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:45 am

I could view this ending out as a Pyrrhic Victory, with Ariel well... having to pick up the pieces. What if as they are about to or in the middle of dueling the tower comes crashing down on top of them? Or the explosion of the airship gives Kel an opening that well ends out with a Pyrrhic Victory.
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 132

Postby MagicSkyshark » Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:30 am

Got a strange feeling that all this should not be happenin'.

If somehow (through means improbable) Kel'noz win, and Sang is defeated - there should be more bloodshed, or the legion troops are not soldiers but a bunch of armed rookies who do know nothing about subordination and orders. The standing order was to capture Ariel and to kill Kel... wait. Why is he still alive at all?? *facepalm*

If somehow Sang win, and Kel is defeated - the wolvsies lose one of their the most valuable asset. Also, some more bloodshed.

I hope that there are at least two reasonable ways from this "bad or worse" situation, though.

First one is Kor'maril escorting Ariel, and then subsequent resigning of Val title by her. No Vals, no need to fight for that anymore, at least. The issue with clan leadership is another matter.

Second one is the appearance of:
1) The mutual enemy to fight.
2) The GRAND KABOOM!from exploding airship and subsequent Nether Gate detonation.
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 132

Postby Basileus_Ioannis » Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:38 pm

MagicSkyshark wrote:First one is Kor'maril escorting Ariel, and then subsequent resigning of Val title by her. No Vals, no need to fight for that anymore, at least. The issue with clan leadership is another matter.

The Byzantines had a rule that an emperor had to be "physically complete". This led to some deposed emperors who weren't killed outright (several of them were) to be disfigured in some horrific way. One emperor had his nose cut off, but he got a gold prosthetic and promptly retook the throne. Others had their eyes gouged out, one emperor dying from the procedure due to the remover having used a dagger and went too deep (or maybe it was sepsis from a dirty blade?). So not sure if the Sangress would permit even this level of civility, and wouldn't kill ex-Vals outright "just to be sure" *doh*
MagicSkyshark wrote:Second one is the appearance of:
1) The mutual enemy to fight.
2) The GRAND KABOOM!from exploding airship and subsequent Nether Gate detonation.

I think #2 is meant to take care of #1 so they can't intercede in the duel. If so, I would be disappointed if we don't get a good sized panel of Kel and Sang locked in their epic duel being silhouetted by the explosion outside the tower B)
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 132

Postby Doom Chinchilla » Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:25 pm

How the hell has Sang managed to go this far when she has such little control over the clan? It should have imploded long ago...

I no longer have any faith on the survival of the Sarghess clan... They are nothing without Quain's sheer power keeping them under control...

I guess drow just can't be free and equal... they need an overwhelming overlord to keep them subjugated to prevent them from committing mass suicide... I guess that's the reason Snad is doing so well: stupid, delusional drow destroy themselves, smart, self-aware drow resign themselves to be slaves...
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 132

Postby Irae Maeviir » Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:22 pm

Doom Chinchilla wrote:I guess drow just can't be free and equal... they need an overwhelming overlord to keep them subjugated to prevent them from committing mass suicide... I guess that's the reason Snad is doing so well: stupid, delusional drow destroy themselves, smart, self-aware drow resign themselves to be slaves...


Drow can be free, but they can never be equal. They are not born equal at all. Each one has different affinities or talents. Or none at all. The only reason commoner drow think they can get rid of vals is because of the use of foci.

Think of foci as real world firearms. In the past only the wealthy and nobles could really afford armors, weapons meant for killing, and the time to learn how to use them. A peasant would have a hard time (or impossible time) to fight a knight clad in full wargear. All that changed with firearms, suddenly a peasant with a firearm could punch a hole or at least damage badly any noble, no matter what armor they used.

So now people with commoner blood can use foci to oppose vals with an affinity that has been carried by their blood for generations on equal terms. However, killing all vals doesn't mean all commoners are equals, because someone has to be in charge. Which means that even if all Vals are gone, someone will still be above the rest, and will probably act like the old Vals did. And someone else will want to bring that leader down and take the position for him or herself. And the cycle will repeat itself.

What happened to the Sarghress is what will happen to the entire drow society if Vals are removed. Without a strong leader, someone nobody in their right mind would dare to attack, then it all boils down to "Why do I have to listen to you? You are no different than me, in fact I'm probably a better leader".
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 132

Postby PSadlon » Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:13 pm

James Rye wrote:Man, Kel can hardly stand. The only way he can win is if Sang does something stupid because she got cocky and he ends her in one blow. Else he dies and Ariel has to be the next one to challenge her.

She's already being cocky.
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 132

Postby sunhawk » Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:18 pm

Given how things usually go. Kel will successfully kill Sang with a suicidal attack. Just as Ariel shows up. Leaving the two Sarghress factions with out leaders. One will look to Ariel and the other Kor'maril. Kor will say that Ariel already beat him. Making Ariel the leader of the United Sarghress. Just in time for Quill and her Raiders to arrive, the airship to blow up, and what ever happens with the demons.
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 132

Postby Najah » Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:22 pm

Look at all those glares for attacking Kyo and not answering the challenge right away.
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 132

Postby SzordrinZaphresz » Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:02 pm

Doom Chinchilla wrote:How the hell has Sang managed to go this far when she has such little control over the clan? It should have imploded long ago...


Sang is a greedy, ambitious, cowardly opportunist. She's been holding out the Vals as some kind of boogeymen and stealing the credit for victories that far more competent commanders have rightfully won, behind their backs, of course.

Kyo has just called her out on it, and she's showing how right Kyo is. If she doesn't make a show out of this fight, the clan's going to turn on her pretty damn fast, including all those commanders she's been short-changing.

Hopefully either Kel gets lucky and kills her, or the airship blows, ringing the dinner bell for a nether god to come through the now uncontrollable nether-super-gate, and the nether demons feed on her first, since her affinity is sending out a bunch of sweet mana for them to consume, and when her limbs stop working... Nom, nom, nom. Before Kel gets killed himself.

We shall see.
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 132

Postby Junglefowl26 » Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:48 pm

Nice dodge on Kyo's part. A singer side stepping a veteran warrior, how embarrassing.

And can't fight? Kyo has a cannon for a face.

...Come to think of it, maybe Kyo should have challenged Sang.

One shot to kill Sang - might be all they need, because who would the legion follow then?
..but what does happen then? I don't expect that Val-haters to suddenly go "Well, I guess Vals are ok then"and fall into line under Ariel, and there is still the issue of the alliance with the other clans and the consequences of breaking that...
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 132

Postby Moric » Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:05 pm

MagicSkyshark wrote:Got a strange feeling that all this should not be happenin'.

Kyo'nne has everyone's attention, and is using Spellsong to boot. It's a cheap ploy, but it works.

MagicSkyshark wrote:If somehow (through means improbable) Kel'noz win, and Sang is defeated - there should be more bloodshed, or the legion troops are not soldiers but a bunch of armed rookies who do know nothing about subordination and orders. The standing order was to capture Ariel and to kill Kel... wait. Why is he still alive at all?? *facepalm*

Well, this is a civil war, and Drowolath are chaotic by nature, so nothing is truly off the table, ever.

Kel'noz has had centuries to work himself up the chain of command, and the power to do so legitimately. He was given the rank of commander before the Sarghress Civil War, so he's probably a well known figure in Sarghress lore in his own right. Also, there's no saying how well Sang's leadership has been for the grunts. Should Sang die, that leaves Mablevi as the highest ranked officer, who is apparently traditionalist enough to accept the outcome of the duel as immutable law.

MagicSkyshark wrote:If somehow Sang win, and Kel is defeated - the wolvsies lose one of their the most valuable asset. Also, some more bloodshed.

Yeah. Killing off your best diplomat, second best scholar, most desirable beefcake for alliance building, and best logistics manager, just because he's Quain's son is pretty stupid. Then again, stupidity has never stopped anyone in the DT universe.

MagicSkyshark wrote:I hope that there are at least two reasonable ways from this "bad or worse" situation, though.

First one is Kor'maril escorting Ariel, and then subsequent resigning of Val title by her. No Vals, no need to fight for that anymore, at least. The issue with clan leadership is another matter.

Second one is the appearance of:
1) The mutual enemy to fight.
2) The GRAND KABOOM!from exploding airship and subsequent Nether Gate detonation.

Scenario 1: From what I can tell, the only thing keeping Sang's command together is by making Ariel a scapegoat. With nobody to blame, it all falls apart. Ariel must be humiliated, abused, and destroyed, or Sang can kiss her own life goodbye.

Scenario 2: Too much up to the author to tell, but it would feel forced.

I'm thinking that Ariel arrives at any moment to challenge Sang. Ariel doesn't necessarily kill Sang, though considering Sang's abilities and Ariel's, it's hard to imagine how Ariel could win, and of those potential means, doing so non-lethally. Of course, if my theory that Sang is to be revealed as a freak summon like Sate'ja was in Chapter 27, Ariel could easily rewrite the narrative and draw the Clan about her.

Doom Chinchilla wrote:How the hell has Sang managed to go this far when she has such little control over the clan? It should have imploded long ago...

From what we've been told, it DID. Sang is holding the splintered and frayed ends together with the propagandistic equivalent of baling wire and duct tape.

Doom Chinchilla wrote:I no longer have any faith on the survival of the Sarghess clan... They are nothing without Quain's sheer power keeping them under control...

As is, yes, they are doomed. There are about four scenarios that I can see them survive somewhat, were it not for the story narrative.

Doom Chinchilla wrote:I guess drow just can't be free and equal... they need an overwhelming overlord to keep them subjugated to prevent them from committing mass suicide... I guess that's the reason Snad is doing so well: stupid, delusional drow destroy themselves, smart, self-aware drow resign themselves to be slaves...

The conflicting sociological pressures of the Chelian civilization are a marvel in their own right.

Irae Maeviir wrote:
Doom Chinchilla wrote:I guess drow just can't be free and equal... they need an overwhelming overlord to keep them subjugated to prevent them from committing mass suicide... I guess that's the reason Snad is doing so well: stupid, delusional drow destroy themselves, smart, self-aware drow resign themselves to be slaves...


Drow can be free, but they can never be equal. They are not born equal at all. Each one has different affinities or talents. Or none at all. The only reason commoner drow think they can get rid of vals is because of the use of foci.

Think of foci as real world firearms. In the past only the wealthy and nobles could really afford armors, weapons meant for killing, and the time to learn how to use them. A peasant would have a hard time (or impossible time) to fight a knight clad in full wargear. All that changed with firearms, suddenly a peasant with a firearm could punch a hole or at least damage badly any noble, no matter what armor they used.

I see where you are coming from, but then, I'm not in full agreement.

The use of foci demands education, time, discipline, and still scales with natural power. Also, one needs to be able to acquire the focus crystal, either by purchase, theft, or craft. It's also one of the oldest weapons in the drow arsenal (2-300 M.A.). The Sarghress aren't unique for using them, rather, they are unique for having hundreds in use by hundreds of drow, opposed to dozens of dragon knights bedecked with dozens of foci each. Who wins in a battle between an army with 1000 men with bolt action rifles vs 10 with tripod miniguns?

Likewise for golems and summons. The Sharen love their huge siege monstrosities, while the Sarghress went for dozens of cheaper, mass produced, single pilot models. The former is a moving fortress of destruction, while the latter is a powerful, hardened, weapons platform. Especially now in the days of nether summoning, the former is far, far more vulnerable than the latter.

Even so, the random shopkeeper or mana-plant farmer still won't stand a statistical chance against either a Sharen dragon knight or a Sarghress legionnaire in an open fight, even with a focus. Ten might be able to, if they are lucky, kill either off with a lucky strike. The shopkeeper or farmer might manage in a surprise, but others would come too. Training is training, and it is intensive. It takes 13 weeks of dedicated, intense training for a civilian just to be called a US Marine, and we are led to believe that the High Arts necessary for foci are far more difficult to utilize than a rifle, let alone master.

Irae Maeviir wrote:So now people with commoner blood can use foci to oppose vals with an affinity that has been carried by their blood for generations on equal terms. However, killing all vals doesn't mean all commoners are equals, because someone has to be in charge. Which means that even if all Vals are gone, someone will still be above the rest, and will probably act like the old Vals did. And someone else will want to bring that leader down and take the position for him or herself. And the cycle will repeat itself.

That works IRL too. That's why almost all revolutions end in the mass slaughter of the very supporters of the revolution, and eventually the leaders too.

Irae Maeviir wrote:What happened to the Sarghress is what will happen to the entire drow society if Vals are removed. Without a strong leader, someone nobody in their right mind would dare to attack, then it all boils down to "Why do I have to listen to you? You are no different than me, in fact I'm probably a better leader".

Correct. Without a common benignity and restraint between ruler and ruled, it always ends with the cruelest, most depraved, and murderous despot on top, paranoid and psychotic enforcers below, a swarm of starving proles at the bottom, and a whole lot of rotting corpses everywhere. Always.

Najah wrote:Look at all those glares for attacking Kyo and not answering the challenge right away.

Yup.

SzordrinZaphresz wrote:
Doom Chinchilla wrote:How the hell has Sang managed to go this far when she has such little control over the clan? It should have imploded long ago...


Sang is a greedy, ambitious, cowardly opportunist. She's been holding out the Vals as some kind of boogeymen and stealing the credit for victories that far more competent commanders have rightfully won, behind their backs, of course.

Kyo has just called her out on it, and she's showing how right Kyo is. If she doesn't make a show out of this fight, the clan's going to turn on her pretty damn fast, including all those commanders she's been short-changing.

Nah - Sang is quite competent, and not cowardly if you take into account (I believe still canon) Battlefield Engineers. Sure, she's a bitch and an opportunist, but she IS Drowolath after all.

SzordrinZaphresz wrote:Hopefully either Kel gets lucky and kills her, or the airship blows, ringing the dinner bell for a nether god to come through the now uncontrollable nether-super-gate, and the nether demons feed on her first, since her affinity is sending out a bunch of sweet mana for them to consume, and when her limbs stop working... Nom, nom, nom. Before Kel gets killed himself.

We shall see.

Chances of happening, as I see it, in order:
1. Ariel interrupting the Kel vs. Sang fight with a dramatic entrance and subsequent duel. Ariel gets the crap beat out of her, then does something with her High Sorcery at the last moment, like absorbing Sang's head and torso through her hair-tentacles.
2. Ariel arriving and fighting as above, but just after Kel gets gutted like a fish.
3. Like #1, but Kel pulls a Shala and dies anyways. Maybe poignant dialogue.
4. #1-3, but with the airship blowing up mid-duel, causing all sorts of mayhem. Perhaps even interrupting the duel somehow.
5. I don't see the gate itself operating when the physical circle and crystals are destroyed, but there's that zombie apocalypse outside that interrupts things.
6. #4/5 proves to Sang of all people that Ariel is the true leader.

Should #1-3 happen, the airship could blow anyways, zombie apocalypse is still happening, etc. Ariel had better galvanize her former enemies to face the threat, thus Chapter Unity.

Junglefowl26 wrote:Nice dodge on Kyo's part. A singer side stepping a veteran warrior, how embarrassing.

Choreography has its benefits.

Junglefowl26 wrote:And can't fight? Kyo has a cannon for a face.

It wouldn't be honored by the rank and file nearly as well as a known Sarghress commander with centuries of leadership experience.

Junglefowl26 wrote:...Come to think of it, maybe Kyo should have challenged Sang.

She's a true Val'Illhar'dro. Death before breaking a nail!

Junglefowl26 wrote:One shot to kill Sang - might be all they need, because who would the legion follow then?
..but what does happen then? I don't expect that Val-haters to suddenly go "Well, I guess Vals are ok then"and fall into line under Ariel, and there is still the issue of the alliance with the other clans and the consequences of breaking that...

Next highest commander takes charge by default - Mablevi. We don't know what he'll do, but if Ariel guarantees that he can be shirtless even at formal events, he may be sold.
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 132

Postby Durlyn Val'Sarghress » Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:17 pm

Junglefowl26 wrote:Nice dodge on Kyo's part. A singer side stepping a veteran warrior, how embarrassing.

And can't fight? Kyo has a cannon for a face.

...Come to think of it, maybe Kyo should have challenged Sang.

One shot to kill Sang - might be all they need, because who would the legion follow then?
..but what does happen then? I don't expect that Val-haters to suddenly go "Well, I guess Vals are ok then"and fall into line under Ariel, and there is still the issue of the alliance with the other clans and the consequences of breaking that...



Maybe Kyo is more athletic than she looks these days? OR maybe its meant to hint that Sang isn't as prolific a warrior as her followers might think she is? Like maybe she's been slacking off since she took power and her skills aren't what they used to be? "shrugs"

This is a tricky situation...As Kyo said, Kel is one of the Nine Masters of Orthorbbae and shouldn't be underestimated, if anyone can take down Sang despite his current shape, its him. However, if Ariel showed up in time, could she serve as his substitute? Or would Sang try to prevent such a thing?

P.S. does Mablevi agree with the troops OR does he simply understand that the leader of the Sarghress turning down a challenge will look bad no matter his own opinion of upholding honor codes and what not.
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 132

Postby Doom Chinchilla » Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:39 pm

Moric wrote:
Doom Chinchilla wrote:How the hell has Sang managed to go this far when she has such little control over the clan? It should have imploded long ago...

From what we've been told, it DID. Sang is holding the splintered and frayed ends together with the propagandistic equivalent of baling wire and duct tape.


The fact that Sang has survived and held this many soldiers under control until now is a marvel.

If Mablevi or Quil, or well, anybody skilled enough can challenge her, kill her and seize control, the only way she can survive and stay in command is to quietly assassinate every Sarghess that is as strong or stronger than she is, plus those that are strong enough to defeat her in a lucky day, just to be sure...

Hell, I can't understand how even the anti-val propaganda has worked so well...! It's not as if she has been allowed to fight vals during these last years under the Snadhya and the Alliance, and Ariel as a boggeyman makes quite a lame scapegoat... a daughter of the revered Quain who worked as a grunt until her mom died and she was exiled to the surface...

It sounds like:

Sang: Vals are evil, let destroy them!
Grunts: Yeah! Let attack the Sharen!
Sang: No! Not the Sharen!
Grunts: Uh... the Belds then? The Illhar'do? The Nal'Sarkoth...?
Sang: No! We will hunt and kill the worst val of all! Ariel Val'Sarghess!
Grunt 1; Who...?
Grunt 2: Isn't she dead?
Grunt 3: Wasn't she a mere grunt patroliing our districts as part of the Home Defense Guard...?
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