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chapter 54 : page 128

Re: chapter 54 : page 128

Postby Smokehammer » Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:13 am

Oh Ariel. Not only was maths hard, but I guess you failed health science too.

Also also, what sort of mess would things be in once Quain noped out into the sunset if she had indeed lived? Then you could hate your Grandmother for saddling YOU with everything instead of keeping hold of your endless naivety. There's nothing more cynical than an ex idealist. Trust me. *wee*
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Re: chapter 54 : page 128

Postby Tsac'Tuo » Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:54 am

I am late and i think nobody say it. But Kor say in the 6 panel that Koil'dorath died.

That have been mentioned before?
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Re: chapter 54 : page 128

Postby Doom Chinchilla » Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:05 am

Tsac'Tuo wrote:I am late and i think nobody say it. But Kor say in the 6 panel that Koil'dorath died.

That have been mentioned before?


Yeah, Sang said so...
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Re: chapter 54 : page 128

Postby Marcellogo » Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:26 am

The same concept of democracy lies on a substantial equality of individual status and potential.
In a word of magic this is just an absurdity, how an be any comparation between a commoner and walking weapon of mass destruction like Diva'tarikha, Snadya, Khaless, Kharla'ggen, Quain'tana, Waes'soloth, high level fighter like Sarv'swati, Sil'lice, Nishi'kanta,Sabbror,Kel'noz, Quill'yate or even young champions like Shinae, Kiel'ndia, Sara'hilana, Ariel herself?

In my opinion we are watching now the final downfall of the underworld Drow civiization and their coming back to the surface as we could see in Drowtales' space Age (and neither in it we have something even remotely similar to a democracy).
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Re: chapter 54 : page 128

Postby Irae Maeviir » Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:58 pm

What a bunch of hypocrites.

"Koil couldn't hold the clan together waaaah waaaaah!"
"You ran away waaah waaah"
"So that's why we want to kill you now"

So let me get this straight. The clan kills Quain (although she was about to die anyway). And also tried to kill Ariel...
Ariel, who knows she is no longer welcome, leaves, knowing the majority of the clan prefers having Koil leading it.
Koil takes over, it doesn't go well, and Koil is killed, probably by Sang's faction.
Now Sang is blaming Quaintana's blood over this...

I'm like... you crazy bastards wanted to put a non Val in charge from the beginning! And you killed that non Val leader! Then the clan falls apart, because the thing putting it together was not the anti val thingy but actually Quaintana and her family. And now you blame Ariel, who wasn't even there when the inner houses fought among each other, as if Ariel would have been able to stop any of them when she was never respected by any of them to begin with!!

I think the Sargs have been drinking too much of the Anti Val Kool Aid, while in the service of the most Val people that have ever existed.
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Re: chapter 54 : page 128

Postby Tsac'Tuo » Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:30 pm

Doom Chinchilla wrote:
Tsac'Tuo wrote:I am late and i think nobody say it. But Kor say in the 6 panel that Koil'dorath died.

That have been mentioned before?


Yeah, Sang said so...


Must have been early in the chapther. And i forget.
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Re: chapter 54 : page 128

Postby Junglefowl26 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:29 pm

Smokehammer wrote:Oh Ariel. Not only was maths hard, but I guess you failed health science too.

Also also, what sort of mess would things be in once Quain noped out into the sunset if she had indeed lived? Then you could hate your Grandmother for saddling YOU with everything instead of keeping hold of your endless naivety. There's nothing more cynical than an ex idealist. Trust me. *wee*

Well, I do think that Quain wasn't planning on leaving right away, not until Ariel was good and ready and had the respect of the clan so that she could lead.

Though yeah, since literally every healer in the Sarghress said she was doomed there clearly wasn't any saving Quain here. Sang's group wasn't totally wrong in recognizing this and keeping Ariel around as a useful figurehead - though at the same time, it is also easy to see why exactly Ariel wouldn't appreciate this point of view.

Marcellogo wrote:The same concept of democracy lies on a substantial equality of individual status and potential.
In a word of magic this is just an absurdity, how an be any comparation between a commoner and walking weapon of mass destruction like Diva'tarikha, Snadya, Khaless, Kharla'ggen, Quain'tana, Waes'soloth, high level fighter like Sarv'swati, Sil'lice, Nishi'kanta,Sabbror,Kel'noz, Quill'yate or even young champions like Shinae, Kiel'ndia, Sara'hilana, Ariel herself?

In my opinion we are watching now the final downfall of the underworld Drow civiization and their coming back to the surface as we could see in Drowtales' space Age (and neither in it we have something even remotely similar to a democracy).

Well, no one but the Vlozz have even mentioned the concept of democracy so I am not sure sure of the relevance but:

The equality of democracy is the equality of rights, not the equality of abilities. Even in the real world there have been people of such talent that they could in fact defeat countless normal warriors. And some people are smarter, some people are stronger, some are faster...but in the end, so what? Even the smartest person doesn't know everything in every field.

Plus, most of the people you mention weren't born special - Diva has a bog standard earth affinity, she just has a lot of training and experience from being so old, her daughters again just had the training and equipment that comes with being from a super rich family, plus a lot of experience, Quil'yate's power comes from being a very experienced mercenary, Kel'noz from being a well studied scholar, so on and etc.

And even those with special abilities - well, Quain's ability certainly helped in fights against magic people, but there are enough non magical threats that she could not rely on it alone, similarly Ariel's shapeshifting has helped more than once, but also more than once she has come close to death and has survived because of her training as well, Shinae relies more purely on her power but again she has come close to dying at the hands of those with more normal abilities.
Relatedly, how much does power really matter when one is still made of flesh and blood? Even if you can't be defeated in battle, what is to stop someone from slitting your throat in the night or poisoning your drink? Hell, Quain died to a combination of poison and completely bog standard crossbowmen. Shodun died of drowning. Shahansa of a surprise blade to the gut.
Kharla is the only one that really comes close to being gamebreaking in terms of sheer power - and yet again I must ask so what? Does that make her a worthy leader?
(Also interesting to note that most of the people with powerful, unique abilities are common born - Kharla, Quain, Shinae...)

Finally, looking at all the devastation that is happening in this story highlights one of the biggest advantages of democracy: stability. In a democracy, the power hungry and disenfranchised alike seek votes to meet their goals. In pretty much every other system, the disenfranchised have no method but violence to gain what they want - the power hungry have more options, but still resort to violence with some frequency. If the drow were democratic, would there still be Nids and Sarghs tearing the whole system down?
So yeah, now that I think about, all these powerful people are all the more reason to be democratic, since it is devastating when they fight. I mean, there is a reason Zala is proposing the alliance like she did - not truly democratic per say (again, not even the Sargh have even heard of the word as far as I can tell - and in the end, the Sarghress failed to be truly revolutionary because they are mad with the system but have no idea what to replace it with.) but a recognition of the need to share power lest everything be destroyed fighting over it.

(Also I think they are a democracy in space age. At least, they have a senate. They do still have an empress, but Britain and Japan still have monarchs as well)
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Re: chapter 54 : page 128

Postby Doom Chinchilla » Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:37 pm

Irae Maeviir wrote:What a bunch of hypocrites.

"Koil couldn't hold the clan together waaaah waaaaah!"
"You ran away waaah waaah"
"So that's why we want to kill you now"

So let me get this straight. The clan kills Quain (although she was about to die anyway). And also tried to kill Ariel...
Ariel, who knows she is no longer welcome, leaves, knowing the majority of the clan prefers having Koil leading it.
Koil takes over, it doesn't go well, and Koil is killed, probably by Sang's faction.
Now Sang is blaming Quaintana's blood over this...

I'm like... you crazy bastards wanted to put a non Val in charge from the beginning! And you killed that non Val leader! Then the clan falls apart, because the thing putting it together was not the anti val thingy but actually Quaintana and her family. And now you blame Ariel, who wasn't even there when the inner houses fought among each other, as if Ariel would have been able to stop any of them when she was never respected by any of them to begin with!!

I think the Sargs have been drinking too much of the Anti Val Kool Aid, while in the service of the most Val people that have ever existed.


Sang wanted to use Ariel as her puppet, and she is angry Ariel escaped her. If she had control over Ariel she would have made her rally the Sarghess against the Sharen, rekindling the war but making the anti-val faction follow her...

Koil wasn't much of a leader, just a soldier, so she would probably have joined the attack, averting a civil war. Sang could then either convince Koil to swear loyalty to Ariel, or arrange a "glorious" death in battle for her...

Ariel didn't want to become Sang's puppet, and she didn't want to fight Koil (who didn't respect her as a leader and wouldn't have followed her, plus her mother had recently been killed by Quain, so she probably was angry at her bloodline) so she ran away, waiting for Koil to either secure power or accept Ariel as heir to Quain'tana. That messed Sang's plans up, forcing her to resort to more crude methods to seize power...

Junglefowl26 wrote:Finally, looking at all the devastation that is happening in this story highlights one of the biggest advantages of democracy: stability. In a democracy, the power hungry and disenfranchised alike seek votes to meet their goals. In pretty much every other system, the disenfranchised have no method but violence to gain what they want - the power hungry have more options, but still resort to violence with some frequency. If the drow were democratic, would there still be Nids and Sarghs tearing the whole system down?


Actually, democracies tended to be very unstable before the creation of modern political parties AND of Industrial Revolution raising prosperity... Democracy collapsed on itself in ancient Greece, in late medieval/Renaissance Italian city-states and in some very prosperous medieval cities in the Low Countries.

The problem was, poor people want to be less poor. They want to work less hours, earn more, to have security, better living conditions, lower taxes, to own their houses, to get rid of debt and to get nice stuff... In short, they want better living conditions... But a government can't guarantee that, much less with an ancient/medieval/early modern economy and tech level...

So democracies tended to collapse after a frustated working class pulled revolution after revolution.

In order to avoid that, most democracies before the middle of the XIX century denied the right to vote to the poor, in order to keep power from their hands... But of course, that frustrated the working class too, encouraging them to rebel against the system even more...

Europe's history from the French Revolution to the french Second Republic is basically an cycle of revolutions and counter-revolutions. In Spain, that cycle didn't really end until the Spanish Civil War in 1936-39.

Around the middle of the XIX century, at the onset of the Second Republic in France, some wealthy people, tired of the revolutionary cycles and fearful of being ruined again, founded the modern system of politicla parties: Basically, you entrust the govenment to a class of professional politicians whose job is to win the support of the masses, while keeping stability and order, rather than letting the common people rule directly. In a masterstroke, they supported the grandson of Napoleon, who became the first and only president of the the Second Republic, who was loved by revolutionaries, but was royalty himself (and as such, invested in keeping stability).

Napoleon III eventually crowned himself emperor, like his grandfather did, but after he was deposed, the Third Republic proved to be way more stable, lasting from 1870 until 1940!

Many European democracies collapsed again after WWI, giving way to fascism, but that wasn't the fault of any inherent weakness of the system, it was just... well, f****g WWI.
Last edited by Doom Chinchilla on Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: chapter 54 : page 128

Postby Irae Maeviir » Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:32 pm

Doom Chinchilla wrote:Sang wanted to use Ariel as her puppet, and she is angry Ariel escaped her. If she had control over Ariel she would have made her rally the Sarghess against the Sharen, rekindling the war but making the anti-val faction follow her...

Koil wasn't much of a leader, just a soldier, so she would probably have joined the attack, averting a civil war. Sang could then either convince Koil to swear loyalty to Ariel, or arrange a "glorious" death in battle for her...

Ariel didn't want to become Sang's puppet, and she didn't want to fight Koil (who didn't respect her as a leader and wouldn't have followed her, plus her mother had recently been killed by Quain, so she probably was angry at her bloodline) so she ran away, waiting for Koil to either secure power or accept Ariel as heir to Quain'tana. That messed Sang's plans up, forcing her to resort to more crude methods to seize power...


Mhm, but still if Sang wanted Ariel so bad, she should have kept contact with them, but they didn't... Now they are blaming Ariel for that, even though Koil would obviously not follow her... They blame her for not wanting to have Sang's metal arm pushed right up her rear and be used as a meat puppet by a power hungry woman.

They love the Anti Val thing, but they are forgetting the Sarghress clan is formed by small houses with their own Dev'esses, which are just 1 step under Vals... because I'm pretty sure the Dev'esses also want their daughters to take over their spot eventually, the only exception might have been Rosof.

They can sell the anti val pitch all they want, they are no better than the Nidras in the long run, hypocrites, power hungry, without the martial honor that the clan once had. That's why Sang is still following Snadhya's orders, even if the Sargs are so weakened they have no choice, there is always the choice of just packing up and leaving (they had no problem reaching the colonies in record time), but they won't. They are so power hungry they prefer to bend the knee to Snadhya and the Sharen while peddling their anti val thing and going out to kill the last 2 remaining Vals even when they say to themselves those 2 vals abandoned them...
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Re: chapter 54 : page 128

Postby Doom Chinchilla » Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:50 pm

Irae Maeviir wrote:Mhm, but still if Sang wanted Ariel so bad, she should have kept contact with them, but they didn't...


Kel'noz wouldn't let Sang manipulate Ariel. Once she was under Kel's wing, Ariel was a threat, not a resource.

Irae Maeviir wrote:They love the Anti Val thing, but they are forgetting the Sarghress clan is formed by small houses with their own Dev'esses, which are just 1 step under Vals... because I'm pretty sure the Dev'esses also want their daughters to take over their spot eventually, the only exception might have been Rosof.

They can sell the anti val pitch all they want, they are no better than the Nidras in the long run, hypocrites, power hungry, without the martial honor that the clan once had.


Well, yeah, they are ALL hypocrites, save maybe Ariel, who naively believes in the clan's "ideals" and does as she is told by people she trusts...

Do you remember that niece of Koil'dorath who hated Ariel for being a val and having a fancy high sorcery? That girl sprouted lots of anti-val nonsense, but she aimed for her own bloodline to become the next ruling house...

Irae Maeviir wrote:That's why Sang is still following Snadhya's orders, even if the Sargs are so weakened they have no choice, there is always the choice of just packing up and leaving (they had no problem reaching the colonies in record time), but they won't. They are so power hungry they prefer to bend the knee to Snadhya and the Sharen while peddling their anti val thing and going out to kill the last 2 remaining Vals even when they say to themselves those 2 vals abandoned them...


Not sure how long staying in Chel, even as a noble, will remain an attractive choice... it really looks like everything is going down the drain...
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Re: chapter 54 : page 128

Postby Mizu » Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:19 pm

Interesting, so Ariel partially blames them for Quain's death. Pretty sure she is wrong though, especially given Quain herself was resistant to treatment and her murder rampage was actually her tossing a paranoid hissy fit because she thought drastic treatment plans could only mean they were going to murder her under the knife. Granted Khaless probably was going to murder her under the knife but nobody there knew that and less severe treatments then 'cut the necrotic flesh out before the rot spreads' had already failed.
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Re: chapter 54 : page 128

Postby Irae Maeviir » Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:40 pm

Well, considering nobody did anything to stop their Ilharess from being cut down by one of the houses...

I mean, I get it, Quain was a dead already, there was no way of saving her. But to let her rampage and kill one of the Dev'esses, or let a Dev'ess kill her... now that, that is what actually caused the entire Sarghress to unravel. If everybody had tried to stop it, they might have actually been able to slow Quain down, to the point she could have been restrained.

It is no wonder Koil failed to unite the clan, given her biological mother was the one who ordered everybody to kill Quain'tana, that kind of baggage is difficult to overcome, when everybody thinks you are only in charge because your family murdered the leader that was keeping them together. Specially if those loyal to said leader knew well Koil was no longer the designated heir, and that someone has been trying to murder the real heir...

Though I feel sad for Koil, I don't think she ever wanted that, but mom kept pushing for it. To the point she tried to have Quain killed, and got killed by her old friend for her efforts. Now Koil got killed by a more ambitious Dev'ess... after all, once a Dev'ess kills the clan leader, why would the others not do the same?
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Re: chapter 54 : page 128

Postby Moric » Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:21 am

With democracy, results may vary - greatly. That's just for human civilization, but drow are even worse. A democracy that is anything but a mob bent upon blaming random groups for all their petty woes requires a philosophical and moral guidance that drow have never developed.

Then consider a system of government where all but the highly trained are emotional putty in the hands of a dozen Sulls versus a dozen Illhar'dro. It would be far worse than IRL today, and I'm talking South Sudan.
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Re: chapter 54 : page 128

Postby Mizu » Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:24 am

Irae Maeviir wrote:Well, considering nobody did anything to stop their Ilharess from being cut down by one of the houses...

I mean, I get it, Quain was a dead already, there was no way of saving her. But to let her rampage and kill one of the Dev'esses, or let a Dev'ess kill her... now that, that is what actually caused the entire Sarghress to unravel. If everybody had tried to stop it, they might have actually been able to slow Quain down, to the point she could have been restrained.

It is no wonder Koil failed to unite the clan, given her biological mother was the one who ordered everybody to kill Quain'tana, that kind of baggage is difficult to overcome, when everybody thinks you are only in charge because your family murdered the leader that was keeping them together. Specially if those loyal to said leader knew well Koil was no longer the designated heir, and that someone has been trying to murder the real heir...

Though I feel sad for Koil, I don't think she ever wanted that, but mom kept pushing for it. To the point she tried to have Quain killed, and got killed by her old friend for her efforts. Now Koil got killed by a more ambitious Dev'ess... after all, once a Dev'ess kills the clan leader, why would the others not do the same?


If my boss just randomly started murdering their way through a bunch of loyal soldiers because she didn't want to accept that drastic medical procedures were needed to save their life I wouldn't lift a finger when they were put down like a rabid dog, no. The blame in this case lays entirely on Quain flipping her shit and overreacting. That she was accidentally right that her doctor was dangerous separate of any plan by the Sarghress to commit treason doesn't excuse her because the danger didn't come from the people she slaughtered on the assumption they were traitors.
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Re: chapter 54 : page 128

Postby Moric » Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:16 am

Quain didn't start going paranoid-psycho until the "healer" tried to render her unconscious. Quain'tana would have accepted even horrific pain, just not that. Of course, only Khaless would have been so suicidal as to force the issue.
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