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Chapter 54 : page 94

Re: Chapter 54 : page 94

Postby MagicSkyshark » Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:11 pm

Nothingness wrote:Are you *joking*?

Felde is Snadhya's base, with her giant gate and demon nurses, Nids protecting it. And from what we know from Kyo'nne, (when she had no reasons to lie), the Aliance in Snadhya's puppet. The situation in Chel has changed, but greatly in Snadhya's favor.

If Ariel agrees to do what you want, it's most probably game over, Snadhya wins. Not to mention, Sang would possibly kill Ariel, or she would be captured and imprissoned, and a lot of her friends would be killed, rather than given a political position.


1) i am not joking
2) Felde is her base, but now it is also the Alliance's city. Also, Kyo is now kinda very suspicious source of intel, of any intel...
3) Snadhya personally? or the drow as a race? From what i see, this whole Alliance vs Ariel thing is a struggle between future (whatever it might be, bright or bleak - "The future is not set. There is no fate but what we make for ourselves") and past (full of civil wars, bloodshed and chaos).
4) As for capturing\imprisoning and stuff.
For Sang and the Legion Ariel's gang and allied mimians are clear and present threat. Currently, Mimians are Chel's enemies, and, by making an alliance with them, Ariel became an enemy, too. So there are two ways out of this - either destroying them entirely, or, if they wish to surrender, to imprison them.

I guess that the latter is more preferable option for Sang.
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 94

Postby Doom Chinchilla » Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:14 pm

I can see a few ways it could go:

1.-Ariel challenges Sang, calling her Snadhya's slave, Sang, who understimates Ariel accepts the duel, and Ariel wins, earning the support of her clan...

2.-Ariel and friends, become desperate enough to unleash the nether gate against the Sarghess, and Ariel becomes reviled by her own clan, having to go her own way...

3.-She Sarghess assault the tower, and Kel holds them while the empaths help Ariel and friends escape using Ashie's "I'm totally the same as you" power. Once they are out of range, somebody detonates the ship, killing the Sarghess and Nidras. Banana will betray them, of course, but they will get out of the tower anyway.

4.-Sillice, Nishi, Diva and Kiel come to the rescue!

5.-The Sarghess and the Nidras assault the tower and take it, but Snadhya comes back and saves Ariel and company's lives, since they are valuable (Ariel's shapeshifting powers, Faen's huge empathic powers, Chiri's seer powers...). They get another chance to escape that way...
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 94

Postby Basileus_Ioannis » Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:04 pm

MagicSkyshark wrote:Welcome to the real world, Neo.

The Legion is not working FOR Felde (or Snadhya).
The Feldians are not working FOR Snadhya (or Nidraa'chal).

They are in the Alliance, and like almost all other major clans in Chel, working towards the mutual goals.
And currently, their goal is to stop the rebellious (Ariel's gang) and hostile (mimians) elements and to protect ALLIANCE property from further raids.

The political scene in Chel has changed greatly, and its up to Ariel to decide what place in the new situation she will occupy.

The war is over (if you want it)

Snadhya'rune and the Alliance are welcome to surrender to Ariel Val'Sarghress at any time B)
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 94

Postby katrover » Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:24 pm

Darkest before dawn, eh Kern? But it's the Underworld here. Dawn never comes. I suppose the end of the chapter shows Ariel and co. taken prisoner and brought before their enemies ... :(
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 94

Postby Sarah » Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:13 pm

Oh man, this is going to end really badly, ain't it? :[
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 94

Postby Junglefowl26 » Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:25 pm

What's this? The hero's desperate one-in-a-million gambit failed? Inconceivable! Kern should be arrested by the trope police!

Oh wait, we knew the plan ahead of time, that was the problem. Should have had an Unspoken Plan Guarantee.


But seriously this is pretty bad. The airship is landed, they are facing the enemy they ran away from with an airship, and a bunch more enemies besides...
I expect Ariel will be able to win or escape somehow but I am not seeing how yet...

Also, I wonder what the status of the Highland Raiders is. We haven't seen them since Quill and Shodun started their duel. Come to think of it, SHodun's role has been surprisingly small given her prominence on the cover.

Where is the mastermind plan? The bold but genius grand strategy?

They are SURPRISED the legion and the feldian are allying? NO SHIT!!!!!

Well, in all fairness, they did have the Highland Raider attack to make the Feldians think any other Sarghress coming would reinforcements, and it wouldn't be unusual for the legion to respond to such an attack as a betreyal.

It was a risky plan that didn't work out in the end, but it wasn't inconceivable it could work.

And really, the difference between a risky plan and a stupid one is the luck of the people implementing it. ;)

Irae Maeviir wrote:ELIPHAS OPEN THE PORTAL! *clears throat* I mean... Ariel...

Ariel: No, I think not.
ARIEL! You treasonous dog!

Seraphiel wrote:Last arc of the chapter, or last arc of the story?

Maybe a little song to end the arc on?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOMQxVtbkik

Or a scene? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geOqbM03Hf0 :V

(good song though)

@Nothingness - I am so sorry, I never did get around to continuing our discussion.

Anyway - yes, Snad had many enemies, and if Ariel had a way of contacting them and telling her side of the story she might be able to get some political support for her position. But she doesn't have that contact, or even much knowledge of the political situation in Chel.

For that matter, neither do we - we don't know if the alliance is wildly popular, how many Sarghress now have personal relationships with members of other clans, how many coup supporters remain in the Sargh ranks, how things are organized back home, what the feelings towards the colonies are, what people back home have heard about the situation etc. Heck, technically we don't even know who is in charge of the Sarghress - Sang leads the legion on this mission, but she might be doing so under someone else's orders. In fact, it would be kind of unusual for a clan leader to drop everything to lead a hunt if you think about it...

And for the Sarghress in particular...well, Ariel was already on thin ice before when Quain was around to support her claim, since many thought it was hypocritical to promote an untried person pretty much on bloodline claim alone, to the degree that Ariel had to flee for life.
But now Ariel has been out of contact for three years - three very important years in which the Sarghress have had to adjust to the loss of the only leader they have ever known and find a place for themselves in a very changed post war world. Even those who don't hate Ariel might not be inclined to see her as their leader, for where was she when they needed leadership most? Playing family on the world's longest vacation?
(At least, that is how my legion cameo thinks. In part, his feelings are complicated)

Plus, again, she allied with Mimians, and we saw them ambush and assassinate alliance ambassadors. And try to kidnap Zala's youngest. Even those inclined to sympathize with Ariel might think her a traitor to Chel for that. ^^;
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 94

Postby Moric » Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:26 pm

Ethanial_F'dian wrote:And so, Ariel and her entourage was slaughtered - the end *crying*

Bah! The fat lady hasn't even warmed up yet.

I'm not sure if Battlefield Engineers is still canon, but it does add a bit more material to Sang's character. Sang was also VERY close to Suu'be as well.

Sang described the Sharen torture method, but doesn't mention whether she was rescued (and by whom?) or was broken. I wouldn't be surprised if Snadhya flipped her then...

So much to consider.
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 94

Postby Nothingness » Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:40 pm

MagicSkyshark wrote:
1) i am not joking
2) Felde is her base, but now it is also the Alliance's city. Also, Kyo is now kinda very suspicious source of intel, of any intel...
3) Snadhya personally? or the drow as a race? From what i see, this whole Alliance vs Ariel thing is a struggle between future (whatever it might be, bright or bleak - "The future is not set. There is no fate but what we make for ourselves") and past (full of civil wars, bloodshed and chaos).
4) As for capturing\imprisoning and stuff.
For Sang and the Legion Ariel's gang and allied mimians are clear and present threat. Currently, Mimians are Chel's enemies, and, by making an alliance with them, Ariel became an enemy, too. So there are two ways out of this - either destroying them entirely, or, if they wish to surrender, to imprison them.

I guess that the latter is more preferable option for Sang.


Dear Sharess, you WEREN'T joking. If anyone needs to awaken to the reall world, it's you not Ariel.

2) You already subverted your own argument here - Snadhya was shown to not ally, but control and subvert others. If her city is part of the alliance, it meas she controls it. Her conflict with Zala, was due to Zala not wanting to be controled by her, but in the end, she caved it, essentially giving the aliance to Snadhya. Do you not remember that?

And really, there is no reason now to doubt Kyo here, so you are just trying to undermine facts, to justify your Matrix dream of the Good, future building Alliance. Again, the Nids working with the Alliance proves it, as it was shown Snadhya only works with anyone, if she can end up contrlling her, and it was pretty shown Zala essentially surrendered to her.

3) Yes, the struggle between Ariel and Alliance is in a fashion a strugle between the future and the past - only that ARIEL is the future. She lacks many of the worst vices of drow society - an Snadhya has pretty much ALL of the vices of the Drow society, as does her alliance. Including extreme cruelity of the old drow ways, as shown with Sang:
http://www.drowtales.com/mainarchive.php?sid=12177

But in the end, it's a struggle between two futures - one bright, if Ariel and her group wins, the other very dark, or even Oblivion, if your Snadhya controlled Aliance wins.

Especially how for now I think over half a decade, possibly even more (like over a decade), Snadhya was set up as the biggest threat.

4) The Alliance, via Nids (woo are VISIBLY working with it/are part of it even in this comic), supplied HUMANS (specifically, an agressive Human empire) with elven tech. IE betrayed their own species. And forced Ariel to ally with mimians, by attacking her first. And sorry, again, SNADHYA is still the biggest present threat. It's shown for years now. again, you need to see the real world yourself.

I mean, can you really bet the Alliance won't be will be shown even further as increadibly flawed and (directly) as controlled by Snadhya? I'm sure of that, and also think it's more probable the Alliance will fall apart, and if not, will have to be fixed, probably by Chrys, Ariel and Co, and others.

Junglefowl26 wrote:And for the Sarghress in particular...well, Ariel was already on thin ice before when Quain was around to support her claim, since many thought it was hypocritical to promote an untried person pretty much on bloodline claim alone, to the degree that Ariel had to flee for life.
But now Ariel has been out of contact for three years - three very important years in which the Sarghress have had to adjust to the loss of the only leader they have ever known and find a place for themselves in a very changed post war world. Even those who don't hate Ariel might not be inclined to see her as their leader, for where was she when they needed leadership most? Playing family on the world's longest vacation?
(At least, that is how my legion cameo thinks. In part, his feelings are complicated)

Plus, again, she allied with Mimians, and we saw them ambush and assassinate alliance ambassadors. And try to kidnap Zala's youngest. Even those inclined to sympathize with Ariel might think her a traitor to Chel for that. ^^;


Again, calling Ariel untrained, was a bit untrue - she gone through much, as much, or more for a Sarghress her age, and lead battles. Quain herself started to lead young. And again, Su'be defying this wish, nearly done fatal damage to the clan, and destroy it via splitting it. And caused the death of one of Quain's chilldren (Mel's child, but officialof Quain), via incompetence (ie her own people didn't follow her orders, and killed the kid). (Also they killed Laele, or at least her body...Although I'm not sure what is left can be called "Laele" anymore). And about Playing "family on the world's longest vacation" - the overworld is the future, something at least many Sarghress aknowlege, and many prominent Sarghress there proven themsleves. Including in part Quain herself.

Ariel and Co. also possibly ended the menace of the Goblin Empire than menaced colonies, with them defeating their forces, and Arie personally slaying the goblin monarch of the Empire...the goblin empire secretly suplied by members of the Alliance.

Many more would think also the "traitors" are those who work with Nids (once literally seen as the biggest enemy of Chel), and unless they have REALLY bad intel, there is some knowlege of Snadhya (who can be seen as embodying all vices of Sharen, the Sarghress hate) being in the Alliance, and possibly at least controlling it, or influencing it. Or those who ally with Sharen. or essentially work for them, to hunt members of their own clan.

I mean, Ariel and co. knew about it, and they were on the surface.

And as I mentioned above, there evidence the Alliance, Alliance artifilated individuals supplying an agressive human empire with drow magitech. As I mentioned, that can be seen as betraying the species. As well as attacking Ariel's group.
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 94

Postby Finn MacCool » Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:59 pm

katrover wrote:Darkest before dawn, eh Kern? But it's the Underworld here. Dawn never comes.

Actually, Felde is situated at the very edge of the underworld. So dawn is a possibility.
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 94

Postby MagicSkyshark » Wed Jul 25, 2018 6:42 pm

Nothingness wrote:Again, calling Ariel untrained, was a bit stupid - she gone through much, as much, or more for a Sarghress her age, and lead battles. Quain herself started to lead young.

As I mentioned above, there evidence the Alliance, Alliance artifilated individuals supplying an agressive human empire with drow magitech. As I mentioned, that can be seen as betraying the species. As well as attacking Ariel's group.


Ariel may be fit for combat, yeah... But Ariel is NOT Quain'tana in the terms of leadership of a clan.

So, the Cannon. That shoots cannonballs. Totally drow MANAtech. There are another inhabitants of the Underworld in possession of such technological marvel - the Duergar, who could simply sell or build this very cannon. Kel'noz stated that humans have no capacity of creating them, and that the other faction is most likely responsible. Kyo was afraid when asked directly, but it's kind of a very vague evidence.

Nothingness wrote: Including extreme cruelity of the old drow ways, as shown with Sang:
http://www.drowtales.com/mainarchive.php?sid=12177

and then Kel'noz - it's a standard practice. All is fair in love and war, isn't it?

Nothingness wrote:Dear Sharess, you WEREN'T joking. If anyone needs to awaken to the reall world, it's you not Ariel.

... just chill a bit, pal. yer takin' it all too serioulsy.
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 94

Postby Moric » Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:15 pm

Some fun theories regarding Sang:

1. Sang did not survive her torture at the hands of the Val'Sharen [sic]. Just like Sate'ja Vel'Sharen, she's a summon controlled by Snadhya.

2. Snadhya rescued Sang just before her head was entirely chopped off. Sang hates all the Sharen besides Snadhya'rune with an overwhelming passion for the agony and loss of her body. Her hatred lead her to accept wholeheartedly the Nidraa'chal vision.

3. It was Sang who goaded Suu'be into acting against Quain'tana, and intended to have the blame for the death of Vene, Pup [Pelan], and the baby girl [Octarya] rest on her shoulders. Notice that Suu'be, though she loathed Ariel, did not try to actually harm her when given the opportunity, sword in hand. Rather, she grabs Ariel by the neck and berates her for making a mess of things. If she meant to kill off Quain's family, one flick of the wrist and Ariel, the heir apparent, would have been a kabob.

More to come!
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 94

Postby Nothingness » Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:19 pm

MagicSkyshark wrote:
Ariel may be fit for combat, yeah... But Ariel is NOT Quain'tana in the terms of leadership of a clan.

So, the Cannon. That shoots cannonballs. Totally drow MANAtech. There are another inhabitants of the Underworld in possession of such technological marvel - the Duergar, who could simply sell or build this very cannon. Kel'noz stated that humans have no capacity of creating them, and that the other faction is most likely responsible. Kyo was afraid when asked directly, but it's kind of a very vague evidence.


Yes, Ariel is not yet Quain'tana's level of leadership, but in some ways she allready is superior - she works far better with some of the troops, due to her greater empathy.

And Ariel allready shows leadership skills, being able to fool and fight the Alliance, including Nids for all this time, and make alies in the hardest times. (The Mimians you brought up).

That's some good leadership. Better than anything we saw, for example from Sang.

And Kyo's sillence is the evidence the Alliance gave the canon. Again if they didn't, why Kyo didn't tell it? As she felt guilty over it.

The VERY STORY clearly frames it as such too.

If it wasn't the case, Kyo would clarify it probably by now.

Now Kyo can potentially testify about this, if they wil be a need.

So sorry, your precious Alliance you fangirl/fanboy over, betrayed it's own kind.

Again, we can wait to see if it will be brought up - if it will be, I'm 100%% sure it will be told the Aliance gave the mana canon. Or you can even ask Kern.

MagicSkyshark wrote:and then Kel'noz - it's a standard practice. All is fair in love and war, isn't it?



Only Kel was forced to do that, to have his alies survive. Sang used it without the reall need for it, as a ruthless and sadistic tactic.

Again, you would bring up Ash here, if you wanted to be more accurate. But she acted there against Ariel.

And I never stated Kel is that morality - I for example never stated Ariel learned her best moral vallues from him (She learned many things from Kel, but Ariel's morality kinda developed at least a bit despite Kel's wishes, I think.). I was in the past even critical of a number of his actions.

Both him and Ash are part of the past, as I don't think they will change. But Ariel cannot exactly change the views of all of drow, and at least their actions weren't as unnecersarily sadistic as Sang's.

MagicSkyshark wrote:... just chill a bit, pal. yer takin' it all too serioulsy.


I'm not angry, I'm even amused by your comments.

I just point out how riduculous the stuff you wrote was.

So, you won't comment about how it was pretty much shown Zala surendered the Alliance to her oldest sister, or bet the Alliance won't be (further) revealed as Snadhya's pawn?

Moric wrote:Some fun theories regarding Sang:

1. Sang did not survive her torture at the hands of the Val'Sharen [sic]. Just like Sate'ja Vel'Sharen, she's a summon controlled by Snadhya.

2. Snadhya rescued Sang just before her head was entirely chopped off. Sang hates all the Sharen besides Snadhya'rune with an overwhelming passion for the agony and loss of her body. Her hatred lead her to accept wholeheartedly the Nidraa'chal vision.

3. It was Sang who goaded Suu'be into acting against Quain'tana, and intended to have the blame for the death of Vene, Pup [Pelan], and the baby girl [Octarya] rest on her shoulders. Notice that Suu'be, though she loathed Ariel, did not try to actually harm her when given the opportunity, sword in hand. Rather, she grabs Ariel by the neck and berates her for making a mess of things. If she meant to kill off Quain's family, one flick of the wrist and Ariel, the heir apparent, would have been a kabob.

More to come!


Hmm, this would explain some things, and the last one would make Sang more sympathetic, and her actions more understandable.
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 94

Postby MagicSkyshark » Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:56 pm

Nothingness wrote:And Kyo's sillence is the evidence the Alliance gave the canon. Again if they didn't, why Kyo didn't tell it? As she felt guilty over it.
The VERY STORY clearly frames it as such too.
If it wasn't the case, Kyo would clarify it probably by now.
Now Kyo can potentially testify about this, if they wil be a need.
So sorry, your precious Alliance you fangirl/fanboy over, betrayed it's own kind.

oh yeah, gross. "the story frames", "silence is evidence", "potentially testify"... just like in some RL stuff, same level of reasoning.
no clear evidence or clue, but the judgement is already done.

also. using proxies as an expendable force is a very sound tactic. not a betrayal.
allying with enemies - that is the betrayal.

Nothingness wrote:Only Kel was forced to do that, to have his alies survive. Sang used it without the reall need for it, as a ruthless and sadistic tactic.

So Kel was forced....
And Sang was not? She and her troops had an airship to fight, the force a bit superior to them in every aspect 'cept numbers.
The tactic of human shield is horrible, but sometimes was an effective way to lower casualties among troops. So for Sang it was a good move to protect her warriors.

Nothingness wrote:I'm not angry, I'm even amused by your comments.
I just point out how riduculous the stuff you wrote was.


oh, i see. But from my point of view, it is quite the opposite.
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 94

Postby Nothingness » Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:31 pm

MagicSkyshark wrote:oh yeah, gross. "the story frames", "silence is evidence", "potentially testify"... just like in some RL stuff, same level of reasoning.
no clear evidence or clue, but the judgement is already done.

also. using proxies as an expendable force is a very sound tactic. not a betrayal.
allying with enemies - that is the betrayal.


Really, if anything, you are rejecting some pretty obvious facts. Yes, it was not stated outright the canon was given by members of the Alliance, but the Timing of "Kyo's" ship, and it's crew's reaction to Ariel refusing to come to the Alliance meeting, - attacking Ariel and co - along with Kyo not being able to say it was no the Alliance who gave the mana canon to the human enemies of colonies - pretty much shows it WAS the Alliance, or at least the Nid members of it, who gave the canon.

Again, I'm sure even fairly sure Kern will confirm it, if we ask him.

Also, Sang didn't use "proxies as an expendable force", she wanted to use drow shelds, to try to stop Ariel and co from firing on them, or slow that down, in the end slaughtering a town that was actually neutral before the attack (ie didn't want to help Ariel).

I also never called using drow shields as a betrayal.

But you say "allying with enemies" is betrayal?

Like Allying with Sharen against part of your own clan?
Like Sang did?

Or Allying with Nids?

Like Sang did?

And no, that Quain VERY relucantly alied with Sharen, doesn't excuse Sang's behaviour. As I wrote allready, even in this thread:

Nothingness wrote:
I think even less people remember Quain clearly wanted Ariel to be seen as succesor/be her succeesor and next ll'haress of the Sarghress clan, did so so fully out of her own will, and it was in comparison fully her decision. And Kel - one of Quain's most trusted advisors, son, and one of the couple people Quain' trully respected - is on Ariel's side.

Quain also never wanted the Alliance with Sharen to ever cause a divide in Sarghress, with part of the clan essentiallly working for the Sharen to fight/hunt the rest of the clan, especially to the point her chosen heir would be hunted (fairly certainly with the intention to kill).

So you cannot (logically at least) claim Sang really follows here Quain's will. If Sang thinks so, she is delusional.Very if that's the case.


Ariel also alied with Mimians, as the Alliance wasnted to allready attacked her and her group. As Kyo's group, represented the Alliance, so they declared allready war on Ariel and her group.

One cannot "betray" a group that attacked you, and allready if anything betrayed.

Not to mention, Zala betrayed the Sarghress, and what the Alliance originally stood for, years ago, by working again with (and essentialy, again for) her oldest sister.
http://www.drowtales.com/mainarchive.php?sid=11697

You know, allying with the enemy, as you wrote?

(Also, as did the Alliance betray the Sarghress, and other members of it in general, working with even known Nids)

Mimians also aren't as of a threat and enemy for every other drow as Nids and Snadhya, set up as such for over a decade.

And the Alliance is just puppet on their strings at this point. Again, if you think otherwise, booooy, ypu will be disapointed *lol*

(Yes, you can still disagree, it's your right. But I'm just warning you, as I think it's quite obvious Snadhya controls the Alliance.)

MagicSkyshark wrote:[
So Kel was forced....
And Sang was not? She and her troops had an airship to fight, the force a bit superior to them in every aspect 'cept numbers.
The tactic of human shield is horrible, but sometimes was an effective way to lower casualties among troops. So for Sang it was a good move to protect her warriors.


No, she wasn't. Sang didn't have to attack Ariel and co. in the first place

As I wrote before:


Nothingness wrote:
I also think Sang majorly diserpects Quain's (her close friends) memory, friendship, and help she given her by hunting Ariel such way. Again, Quain, wanted Ariel to be her succesor, and despite her rought attitude, it's visible Quain ultimatelly grew to love Ariel as her daughter.

At the very least Sang could just do nothing to help Ariel, and refuse to help her, if she doesn't think she is a good leader, not try to kill her, and obliderate her alies - including Kel, another of few the people Quain trully cared about, and probably even lesser number she actually respected and heared advice of, and Ash, who was Quain's lover.

A "true wolf" doesn't betray their loyality like this, even towards a deceased leader and close friend, nor does a "true Sarghress".


Also, Sang can even just walk because of Quain.

And even aside from that, Sang could just retreat and regroup, better prepared for such battle. Not use a sadistic tactic, that still gave nothing in the end, aside from needless death, including of Sang's troops, if because of Ash.

MagicSkyshark wrote:
oh, i see. But from my point of view, it is quite the opposite.


If you think so...
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 94

Postby Mizu » Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:18 pm

Hope you had a plan B that wasn't 'run away in the airship again if they act like reasonable adults and don't start fighting each other for real over friendly fire'.
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