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Chapter 54 : page 90

Re: Chapter 54 : page 90

Postby Junglefowl26 » Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:22 pm

almondbiscuit wrote:
Junglefowl26 wrote:
Sang sold her butt to Snadhya, and Sharen, despite the Sharen maiming her.

In other words, she's a beaten dog on a chain, not a wolf.

Quain, wouldn't just kill Sang for this - she would torture her to death for this.

...Does anyone else remember that the alliance with the Sharen was Quain's idea?

(Well, technically Ash's, but Quain made it happen)


Unless Sang doesn't know that Snadhya is in charge of the Sharen side of the alliance now (and if she truly is supposed to be in non-aggression with the Feldians, she can't not know), she still sold herself and all her allied soldiers to someone Quain was still actively trying to kill at the time she died.

Obviously we have no idea if Snadhya would have been insane enough to try and take over her baby sister's faction if Quain had still been alive, but if she had, I imagine the alliance wouldn't have lasted beyond one more meeting- for Quain to promptly attempt to put a sword through her. And yet here's Sang.

A fair point.

Though from what I understand, Snad's survival from Nishi's rock attack is not publicly known. Whether or not that extends to clan leaders is hard to know, but it is possible that basically only Zala and the Nids are aware of her survival and influence. Course, this makes me wonder who is officially the leader of Felde.

Basileus_Ioannis wrote:
Moric wrote:Mablevi was there and stuck a dagger into Kel'noz's chest. He would certainly know who Kel'noz is, and did it anyways. No, Make no mistake, for Sang is there for Ariel's head; whether that intention is redirected is of vast importance.

ack :U I had a mental block about Mablevi's deliberate attack on Kel, thanks for reminding me
Junglefowl26 wrote:
I suppose the next page or two will answer this definitively, but I'm holding out hope that the Sangress are allied with Kel after all
As someone who bought a cameo of that faction, I hope not.

I want to be a bad guy dammit.

Plus, the Sarghress internal divisions are deep and interesting enough to not just be paved over by some same clan sentiment, particularly since the recent chapters have been about the collapse of the clan system.

point taken B) so it's not the allegiance of the Sangress that's in question, but whether the Feldian army will fight the Sangress to ruin or not that will be determined in the next page...

Indeed.

Well, it is in doubt whether Sang is actually on board with the alliance, or she just feels she has to be and would be eager to have an excuse to slaughter both sides and blame it on Ariel and the Mimians. ^^

'Lement wrote:For comparision, here's highland raiders entering.

This is nice.

Oh, and Sarghress twelve thousand members keep wowing the tiny Nidra'chaal.

Hmmm....I doubt Sang brought everyone. Someone needs to do police duty in Chel, and from what we can tell, war is brewing between Chel and Mim, so they probably are preparing for that. Plus, I imagine that Ariel has enough sympathizers that she couldn't trust everyone - I imagine this force was specifically chosen for being willing to go against her.

Though I do have to admit I have not idea how big it is overall.
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 90

Postby Moric » Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:12 pm

To be fair, even a thousand Sarghress troops is a scary sight. I'd wager that the total in Felde right now is just about three to four thousand between the three factions. That's probably close to half of the entire population of Felde in comparison.
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 90

Postby Nothingness » Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:20 pm

Junglefowl26 wrote:...Does anyone else remember that the alliance with the Sharen was Quain's idea?

(Well, technically Ash's, but Quain made it happen)


I think even less people remember Quain clearly wanted Ariel to be seen as succesor/be her succeesor and next ll'haress of the Sarghress clan, did so so fully out of her own will, and it was in comparison fully her decision. And Kel - one of Quain's most trusted advisors, son, and one of the couple people Quain' trully respected - is on Ariel's side.

Quain also never wanted the Alliance with Sharen to ever cause a divide in Sarghress, with part of the clan essentiallly working for the Sharen to fight/hunt the rest of the clan, especially to the point her chosen heir would be hunted (fairly certainly with the intention to kill).

So you cannot (logically at least) claim Sang really follows here Quain's will. If Sang thinks so, she is delusional.Very if that's the case.

Junglefowl26 wrote:The alternative is still a war with everyone. A war the Sarghress cannot win, or at least would be absurdly bloody if winnable.


Not really - there is a number of people against the Snadhya, and the Alliance she leads.

And Sarghress together with those as allies, could be strong enough to prevail or even win.

Especially that the Sarghress fully walking out of the alliance, and proclaiming it's corruption, would most probably cause at least some of the other clans do the same. And this would weaken the Alliance, and provide further allies for the (hypothetically then) united Sarghress.

And in such situation, the Alliance would much be probably less eager to go into a conflict.

Snadhya knows this, this is why she manipulated Sang to fight Ariel allied Sarghress, after Ariel refused to be her puppet.

Junglefowl26 wrote:
A fair point.

Though from what I understand, Snad's survival from Nishi's rock attack is not publicly known. Whether or not that extends to clan leaders is hard to know, but it is possible that basically only Zala and the Nids are aware of her survival and influence. Course, this makes me wonder who is officially the leader of Felde.


Please, Snadhya doesn't make a secret of her survival (or at least make much of a secret), aparently even of pulling strings behind of the Alliance now. Ariel's forces clearly knew of it (and if Sang and her forces/the Legion didn't, you must admitt their intelligence gathering is far from the best)
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 90

Postby Moric » Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:11 am

Nothingness wrote:Especially that the Sarghress fully walking out of the alliance, and proclaiming it's corruption, would most probably cause at least some of the other clans do the same. And this would weaken the Alliance, and provide further allies for the (hypothetically then) united Sarghress.

And in such situation, the Alliance would much be probably less eager to go into a conflict.

I doubt that there are many clans outside the Nidraa'chal, Nal'sarkoth, and the Jaal'darya that would gladly throw themselves upon Sarghress spears for Snadhya's sake. For instance, if the Sarghress under Ariel's leadership would be less of a standing existential threat to Zala'ess and all her children, then her own enthrallment to Snadhya would dissolve.
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 90

Postby ohriniel666 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:48 am

Nothingness
WOW. Why do you hate so much, dude? :0
Is its antipathy to Ariel and Co* a crime now?
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 90

Postby Nothingness » Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:57 pm

Moric wrote:
Nothingness wrote:Especially that the Sarghress fully walking out of the alliance, and proclaiming it's corruption, would most probably cause at least some of the other clans do the same. And this would weaken the Alliance, and provide further allies for the (hypothetically then) united Sarghress.

And in such situation, the Alliance would much be probably less eager to go into a conflict.

I doubt that there are many clans outside the Nidraa'chal, Nal'sarkoth, and the Jaal'darya that would gladly throw themselves upon Sarghress spears for Snadhya's sake. For instance, if the Sarghress under Ariel's leadership would be less of a standing existential threat to Zala'ess and all her children, then her own enthrallment to Snadhya would dissolve.


Yup.

ohriniel666 wrote:Nothingness
WOW. Why do you hate so much, dude? :0
Is its antipathy to Ariel and Co* a crime now?


No, antipathy towards Ariel and Co isn't a crime - it's just I point out a lot of people, just due to disliking Ariel forget or don't see obvious things.

And, I don't feel any hatred towards you, others liking Sang, or even really characters like Sang, I'm just irritated by people here being ignorant of some fairly obvious things, and stating at times outright silly things because of that.

The large part of my comments comments were also meant to be "in character"/"roleplaying" to fit (if in a opposed way) your entusiasm for Sang and Legion appearing.

It also comes of to me at least some fans will support factions/people opposed to Ariel, no matter how much these characters are morally flawed, the flaws of their motives, or how they fit even more the criticism that is aimed at Ariel, just based on the fact they are opposed to Ariel. (And are from a liked by fandom clan, like the Sarghress.)

Like trying to justify Sang's actions, and describing her and the Legion serving under her as "true Sarghress", even though she essentially at least partially betrayed the core Sarghress ideals by this point, by becoming the Sharen and Snadhya's hound, that hunts their own, for essentially their (old) arch enemies.

I mean, let's be honest - Sang and the Legion do essentially help Snadhya by this point, even if they somehow they don't know it.

Or people defended Sang on the basis the alliance with the Sharen was ultimatelly suported by very reluctant Quain (and she really didn't want it, and was only conviced by Ash), which is hypocritical to bring up if people ignore Quain far more, and fully out of her own will wanted Ariel to be her succesor, and be seen as such. Again, one cannot bring the argument of "Quain wanted/done it, ignoring that.

I also think Sang majorly diserpects Quain's (her close friends) memory, friendship, and help she given her by hunting Ariel such way. Again, Quain, wanted Ariel to be her succesor, and despite her rought attitude, it's visible Quain ultimatelly grew to love Ariel as her daughter.

At the very least Sang could just do nothing to help Ariel, and refuse to help her, if she doesn't think she is a good leader, not try to kill her, and oblierate her alies - including Kel, another of few the people Quain trully cared about, and probably even lesser number she actually respected and heared advice of, and Ash, who was Quain's lover.

A "true wolf" doesn't betray their loyality like this, even towards a deceased leader and close friend, nor does a "true Sarghress"

Again, these are my reasons.

If you still disagree okay, but I have my reasons to be critical.
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 90

Postby ohriniel666 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:47 am

No, it's fine.
But for me the author has failed to create Ariel like realistic character for this comics. Even Drizzt was better prescribed for his world.
Look, Legion is bad, Snad is bad, drow is bad. But at least they are honest. Ariel just an infantile hypocrite with a plot armor. There are no real moral qualities. It's all. ;)
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 90

Postby Nothingness » Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:17 pm

I wouldn't say Ariel is exactly an "unrealistic character" - she makes mistakes, and that you think she's a "hypocrite" shows she has some conflict with her decisions.

And about her hypocrisy, again, I wouldn't say she is more of a hypocrite than other characters, Ariel just tries to do the right thing even if she doesn't allways succed. Ariel's "hypocrisy" is just the diffuculty of dong so in a setting like that of Drowtales.

Which arguably makes her more realistic. It also shows the influence of multitude people on her (Vaelia, Faen, Kel, Mel, Qain, even Chiri etc.)

That other characters are more realistic, and more sympathetic to the reader, as they are "honest", is just I think a fallacy, and something the Dark Knight's Joker would think. Again, them being supposedly honest, is them compromising their moral qualities (sometimes even completelly).

Also, another thing is, Ariel's side (Ariel and Co.) is more than just her...

But that's just my opinion, and you're feee to disagree.
(And dislike Ariel *lol*)
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 90

Postby Moric » Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:58 pm

Hypocrisy? I'd say no. A hypocrite must have a moral position to betray, or even a lack of a sense of irony regarding what they say and what they do.

Throughout the story setting, there's precious few defined morals for even the worst characters to actually bear that epithet, and 90% of them were Kyorls.

Ariel is, well, still figuring things out, as kids usually need to do. Righteousness to her is pretty much defined by her emotions, Clan propaganda, and what little experience that she's garnered.
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 90

Postby Basileus_Ioannis » Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:13 pm

That little red book of Quain's ire still Ariel's roadmap, eh? ;) Ariel absorbs input from her friends and Kel, sometimes with wide eyes. But it seems the Quain'tana's Saga of her childhood is still her manual, against which even the real Quain was compared, to get her bearings. Granted, the reality of situations have a sobering effect on her, like the Herm invasion. But I suspect it's more frustration that she can't act along the lines laid out in that (expletive deleted) book B)

btw Sar'nel's starting crowd funding for Ariel's Saga...give him your Ada 8P
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 90

Postby Nothingness » Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:49 pm

Moric wrote:Hypocrisy? I'd say no. A hypocrite must have a moral position to betray, or even a lack of a sense of irony regarding what they say and what they do.

Throughout the story setting, there's precious few defined morals for even the worst characters to actually bear that epithet, and 90% of them were Kyorls.

Ariel is, well, still figuring things out, as kids usually need to do. Righteousness to her is pretty much defined by her emotions, Clan propaganda, and what little experience that she's garnered.


Exactly my thoughts :)

Basileus_Ioannis wrote:That little red book of Quain's ire still Ariel's roadmap, eh? ;) Ariel absorbs input from her friends and Kel, sometimes with wide eyes. But it seems the Quain'tana's Saga of her childhood is still her manual, against which even the real Quain was compared, to get her bearings. Granted, the reality of situations have a sobering effect on her, like the Herm invasion. But I suspect it's more frustration that she can't act along the lines laid out in that (expletive deleted) book B)

btw Sar'nel's starting crowd funding for Ariel's Saga...give him your Ada 8P


Well, I don't think it's that of an influence on Ariel at this point - yes it still I think influeces how up, to level, Ariel builds herself as a leader, but there are other influences. I think Ariel's most "moraly good" decisions were more influenced by Faen, Vaelia, and even on some level Diva and and Mel.

To be clear, I think Vaelia had a major influence on Ariel's morality - Vaelia's was a human slave, the lowest, of the lowest in the social ladder of drow society - yet she protected Ariel, even saved her life, and was arguably the biggest mother figure she had, and imprinted a lot of her own morality on Ariel.

And because of Vaelia's former status, Ariel also doesn't at least wants to persecute the weak/weakest.

Ariel's decision to reect the Aliance with Snadhya, was out of her own expiriences of seeing what Sndhya is capable of, because what she done to Kau and Shala, as well as morality, and realizing at least on some level, what such aliance wold mean in the end.

And Ariel is capable of making, or accepting some more "cynical", and less "storybook Qain" stategies, at least it seems from this chapter - it comes of she wanted theforces in Felde to attack the Legion, mistaking them for Ariel's forces.
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