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chapter 54 : page 2

Re: chapter 54 : page 2

Postby Black Knight LeFreux » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:48 am

Smokehammer wrote:Sure, in fact without the element of surprise Felde should be impossible to take for this ragtag bunch unless most of Min joins up(not just the owls).


And for the operation to be really successfull, Snadhya has to be there, otherwise they would just wreck the most loyal city to her without making really a dent to her plans. Even with Felde lost, she would still have her spy network within the alliance, and she's used to being the puppetmaster behind the scene.

There is no chance of peace as long as she wants to become a goddess on earth.
She could still manipulate the Sarghs into destroying each other and goad Mimaneid to war... Unless someone finally succeed in cutting the viper's head.
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Re: chapter 54 : page 2

Postby El Bandito » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:05 am

I think this is the only way...
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Re: chapter 54 : page 2

Postby ChelianTeaParty » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:49 am

Flipping the table during negotiations is the correct response to Nid-aligned shitbags. Return the airship to Felde? What, so Snad's minions can bombard Machike again? Not bloody likely. :V
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Re: chapter 54 : page 2

Postby gd1 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:49 pm

ChelianTeaParty wrote:Flipping the table during negotiations is the correct response to Nid-aligned shitbags. Return the airship to Felde? What, so Snad's minions can bombard Machike again? Not bloody likely. :V


If Snad wasn't an insane power broker and actually cared about people I'd feel for her cause. Well that and her methods being in keeping with being an insane power broker.
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Re: chapter 54 : page 2

Postby Had'thea » Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:04 pm

heh, Ariel reminds me of this comic from Girl Genius: http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.p ... lOd_HlrzIU

Good hunting, Wolves - may you succeed in crushing your enemies, and bringing a time of peace to the surface.
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Re: chapter 54 : page 2

Postby Junglefowl26 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:29 pm

Welp - that is a natural 1 one diplomacy if I have ever seen one.

(And for all the people saying Quain would be proud...once again I have to point out that Quain did in fact engage in actual diplomacy. Yeah, she hated doing it and threw in lots of threats, but she did the whole give and take thing rather than just make ultimatums.)

Also - are Ariel's eyes blue now?

Whizzard wrote:I'm usually with Ariel but this is quite a bit too much doing as your enemy does. But why? Do they know Ys is Snadhya's pawn? Then this assault is justified as leaving the colony alone wouldn't just let Ys to send word to Snad but also provide Snadhya with troops and resources.

But if not, then this is just an act of evil with no excuses. Oh but let's not get ahead of ourselves, all Ariel has done so far is flip the table and Kel signalled the others. Ariel's action may serve another purpose. Perhaps to test this pawn of Snadhya to see how she reacts... or just to distract them with a commotion while the ship ransacks Ys stores perhaps? We do know they need resources. And Ys evidently is used to ransacking, so what's one more? :P

I have to agree.

"Join us or die" with the or die part not being explicit is something that was pretty heinous when Snad did it, it doesn't suddenly become cool and heroic when the good guys do it.

I mean, I certainly understand being distrustful of Snad's supporters after what happened, but distrust shouldn't turn into violent paranoia, particularly since the wolf pack has enough of an upper hand that there isn't much Ys can do to them.

Plus, in the long run this is a pretty stupid move. Why would other colonies join Machtike in its conflict if both sides act the same? Not to mention this will make it near impossible to get any support in Chel, since such actions would make any of Snad's claims about Machtike starting the conflict all the more believable.

So I hope that this is part of a plan to get past the council and spread their message to the people of Ys directly.

History is written by the victors. Our heroes' truth will prevail eventually, but people will believe it only because they'll have no choice.

o_O

I mean, I could go on all day giving examples of history not being written by the (military) victors, but more importantly image is an important part of war.

Morale. Alliances. Recruitment. Wars are won or lost on such things every bit as much as they are on weapons, training, and tactics. More than one failed conqueror thought they had the strength to ignore diplomacy and image until reality proved harshly otherwise.

Heck, personally I would argue that a major reason the Sharen lost the last war is precisely because they ignored their image to focus purely on doing whatever seemed useful at the time.
It is short term thinking in the extreme. Burning down the world of today to make a brighter future, only to be surprised when you only have ashes to show for it.

All the more so because Machtike is a small colony that recently took heavy losses. Airship or know, they are outnumbered by veteran soldiers by several orders of magnitude - their one and only hope of victory is the securing of popular support and political alliances, and for that they need the moral high ground.

Smokehammer wrote:The biggest issue is why is the Wolf Pack here at all? I know theyre looking for allies but they couldve gone to Chel(on foot, covertly) and had better luck statistically. And the supplies theory doesnt hold water at all as surely Shashi is close to Felde than Ys. With the citizens of the Alliance settled in and happy, as rebels they have virtually nothing going for them except the element of surprise and audacity so why didnt they fly straight to Felde?

I am kind of curious myself. Ariel was well aware that Ys was heavily Snad influenced, particularly after getting kicked out three years ago when she first saw the airship.

Best possibilities in my opinion:
1) She wasn't sure if things had changed and perhaps people in Ys had grown tired of Snad's influence.

2) She was pretty sure that Ys was an enemy asset (she and Kel did have this prearranged after all. I don't think they were expecting to succeed) but though it prudent to make sure. Diplomatic scouting as it were.

Quill will fit in... she's obviously elsewhere on the Surface, but not easily reached

Quill is stated to be in Machtike. She is just off screen constantly for whatever reason.

Probably got dubbbed "Sir Not-Appearing-in-this-Webcomic" :P
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Re: chapter 54 : page 2

Postby Smokehammer » Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:11 pm

Black Knight LeFreux wrote:
Smokehammer wrote:Sure, in fact without the element of surprise Felde should be impossible to take for this ragtag bunch unless most of Min joins up(not just the owls).


And for the operation to be really successfull, Snadhya has to be there, otherwise they would just wreck the most loyal city to her without making really a dent to her plans. Even with Felde lost, she would still have her spy network within the alliance, and she's used to being the puppetmaster behind the scene.

There is no chance of peace as long as she wants to become a goddess on earth.
She could still manipulate the Sarghs into destroying each other and goad Mimaneid to war... Unless someone finally succeed in cutting the viper's head.
They may totally believe she's dead at this point. We dont know. we know Zala knows she isnt, and couple of her guards but everyone else? Ehh....

Presumably theyre officially at war with Felde and whats left of the Nids that they somehow think are manipulating the Alliance without Snadhya (or they wouldnt have been so nice to Suna's envoy).


So I hope that this is part of a plan to get past the council and spread their message to the people of Ys directly.
So you think theyre actually going to fire on their own position? I was kidding ^^;
I dunno, in all seriousness I fully expect that they'll shoot at the ground and be all "Ok lets start over, I say we join together and you smile and nod from your comfy spot on the ground."

It still isnt doing shit anything but warning Felde that someone else has their ship now, and maybe gathering supplies and the few dissidents that might live in Ys, but I seriously doubt there are many here who dont want to be. The Ysens kicked out everyone who didnt want to stay neutral a long time ago and it would be beyond weird for Snadhya to have any sort of oppressive influence this far from home. Hell it would be beyond weird for Snadhya to have any kind of oppressive influence over anyone except Zala'ess, who cant be too much of an ass without Sang's full support. At this point if any of the populous is being terrorized its a direct result of the Sarghress doing it. Ariel doesnt have a snowball's chance in hell of trying to appeal to the masses unless she can swing a victory over her own Clan and bring forth the actual promises Ash attributed to Quain, which she cant do unless she has the support of ...Ana? - Thats pretty much her only chance realistically unless Zala's smart enough to grow a pair of tits(along with the Nuqran's following suit) and support her(with force) as the legitimate heir of the Sargs. Attacking Felde(or the Nidraa -unless Sang IS Nidraa) is ultimately pretty damn useless. They need to go to war with the Sarghress.
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Re: chapter 54 : page 2

Postby Doom Chinchilla » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:09 pm

I wonder if Ischa realizes that she's about to declare war on the Alliance... of which her own clan, the Beld'robbaen, are a part of...

Of course, taking into account the behaviour of the Chelian clans, the Beldies and the Nals will backpedal and stay away of the fight as soon as Ariel proves to be a serious contender, while Zala and Nega will secretly offer her to switch sides if she gives them a better deal than Zala (only when she seems like she can win, of course...).

What is Erio doing here? Identifying Nidra'chaals among the council, maybe?
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Re: chapter 54 : page 2

Postby Seraphiel » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:29 pm

(ノ ゜Д゜)ノ ︵ ┻━┻


*beer*
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Re: chapter 54 : page 2

Postby Junglefowl26 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:34 pm

It still isnt doing shit anything but warning Felde that someone else has their ship now, and maybe gathering supplies and the few dissidents that might live in Ys, but I seriously doubt there are many here who dont want to be.

Yeah, that is the thing - from what we can tell, Ys is a nice place to live and most residents are there because of that. Even Snad's influence is mostly behind the scenes from what I can understand, so at best Ariel sounds like a conspiracy theorist.

Eh, I just hope she has some plan more morale than leveling a city because the leaders said no to an alliance.

Hell it would be beyond weird for Snadhya to have any kind of oppressive influence over anyone except Zala'ess, who cant be too much of an ass without Sang's full support.

Personally, Felde struck me as having a police state vibe (particularly the "happiness is mandatory" kind), and she strikes me as having a controlling personality, so I can see her setting up a larger police state as her long term goals.

But she really doesn't have the power for that yet, since she has to work through the alliance in the end.

Thats pretty much her only chance realistically unless Zala's smart enough to grow a pair of tits(along with the Nuqran's following suit) and support her(with force) as the legitimate heir of the Sargs. Attacking Felde(or the Nidraa -unless Sang IS Nidraa) is ultimately pretty damn useless.

I can also see Waes being sympathetic (she is protective of her family, and she knows Snad was responsible for it nearly being destroyed) and possibly the Illhardro (from whom the airship was stolen, and whose own colonies were attacked). Plus, the Nals and Jaals are opportunistic...

So overall I could see this Machtike incident being used a weapon in the political games of the alliance council - but if they go on the offense and act like bandits, then I can see that sympathy dry up real quick and them be treated...well, as bandits.
For that matter, allying with the Mimians and proposing a colonial alliance separate from the power of the Chelian alliance is already something that might turn potential sympathizers against them.

So overall I agree - Zala is probably her best potential ally here. I am sure Zala would love to get out from under Snad's thumb and this incident could be useful, as could Ariel's status as the Sarghress heir.* Plus, she has a contact in the form of Chrys.
Though once again Zala still wants power for herself, and probably doesn't want the colonies to get too independent either.

Hmmm....and it is kind of hard to say for sure without more info on the current state of alliance politics. (I wonder close it ended up being to Zala's proposal)

* I kind of wish that Zala had tried to set up Nau and Ariel before everything went to hell, and both Ariel and Nau being horrified at the thought of it.
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Re: chapter 54 : page 2

Postby Smokehammer » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:02 pm

Junglefowl26 wrote:Though once again Zala still wants power for herself, and probably doesn't want the colonies to get too independent either.
Maybe. This entire time she's been trying to out-fox-the-fox. If she backs Ariel and keeps the deal she made with Quain with Ariel, Ariel being Ariel, wont double cross Zala like Quain intended to do once things have settled so I doubt Zala (as much as I hate to say it) would screw over Ariel either*. She'd be too busy patting herself on the back as being a fair, honorable and wise Empress while her people prosper as a result of an idea that was indeed, hers. Ash is kinda a hitch in the mix but maybe Ashie will die killing Snadhya?

*Basically I dont think Zala wanted power for the sake of power so much as the recognition that she was powerful. In that, I suppose she's a lot like Quain and differs greatly from Snadhya. I dont see any particular need from the character to crush and control everyone around her for self worth(which is where Quain and Snadhya are alike), she simply didnt want to be puppet anymore and wanted respect. Ergo, theres a lot of room in there for her to be a decent monarch, like Trulath said. If she lives long enough to give Suna the good part of her perspective, the Chelians could have a pretty decent future.
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Re: chapter 54 : page 2

Postby Mizu » Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:21 am

So, they are literally doing the exact same thing Snadhya did to them? Make a half assed attempt at diplomacy then attack them when it doesn't go your way. What are they even hoping to gain, conscripts? materials?
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Re: chapter 54 : page 2

Postby Smokehammer » Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:43 am

Satisfaction Sillice style?

Assuming therye going to attack. I dont think they are, but Im usually wrong.
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Re: chapter 54 : page 2

Postby PSadlon » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:34 pm

Grandpa Sadlon had a a really good policy that comes to mind here. "You can't fight fair with someone who wont fight fair." Snad and her followers in the Alliance do not and will not fight fair, trying to do so in response is stupid. Even if you win doing so, you will end up hurt far more than necessary. Maybe if they would fight you could afford to take the moral high ground, but it's just no the case here. Neither is waiting for problem to go away. It's going to keep popping up like a bad penny.

PS and before you suggest diplomacy. Bear in mind I am as pro-diplomacy & negotiation as you can get and even I can recognize sometimes there are people out there with who they are poor tools. Snad is one of those people. If you negotiate with her, even if you think you are holding all the cards and you are getting a good deal out of it you are getting the crap end of the bargain. At best, she will completely undermine you you from within.
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Re: chapter 54 : page 2

Postby Moric » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:04 pm

There's been some great discussion here, and I can't respond in a way that gives due credit, so I apologise beforehand.

To begin with, I try my best to consider the working philosophy and ethics within the setting. If I don't, then enjoying, say, The Godfather would simply not happen. This is true for Drowtales as well. As far as I can tell, such concepts as universal dignity, rights, and justice simply have no bearing (outside of some demented Vloz radicals). The concept of fair play is only applicable for those who have the power to insist upon it. In this world, might actually does make righr, and the only people who care about someone are her family members, if even then.

So, going back to The Godfather, Michael's family has suffered some pretty nasty losses, has been undercut by supposed allies, and subject to some dirty tricks. If Michael cries and continues to be a model citizen, everything that means anything to his family is destroyed. As such, I would see a coup for Ys to be no dirtier for a drow than a pistol hidden behind a toilet is for a mobster.

As for how this plays out, please consider every member of the Alliance is acting out of pure self-interest. If Felde's colony gets sacked, nobody cares unless food prices rise in Chel. If the rightful heir of the Sarghress gets in the way of Chelian Sarghress ambitions, she will be forcefully removed from existence, unless, of course, there is reason to be afraid of her.

Now part of the Drow culture is undeniably hero worship and a belief in ancestry and inherited greatness. Throughout much of Arc II, there are cues where drow, friend and enemy alike expect Ariel to become her grandmother. So, if this is the case, exile to the overworld and returning as a conqueress is damn near a messianic Quain'tana's Second Coming. As for the details, narrative momentum of victories is key.

As for taking Ys, how many war-weary colonists feel like dying? Many perhaps if the alternative is also dying, but if merely an inconvenience or annoyance? Ehhhh...
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