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Chapter 53 : page 13

Re: Chapter 53 : page 13

Postby Faeryn » Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:33 am

Smokehammer wrote:Dont want kids? Dont have sex. Its pretty damn easy, so yeah Chiri kinda asked for this because Im 100% certain Shan isnt a rapist.


Entirely possible sex education isn't exactly a priority among the Ssu. There's been a few hints that they are rather bashful about the subject.
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Re: Chapter 53 : page 13

Postby Smokehammer » Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:10 am

nerdycanuck wrote:That's such an unfair statement. Sure, abstinence is a thing. But to say that Chiri asked for this simply by having sex isn't cool. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that someone might want sex but not desire children. I certainly fall into that category and thus took measures to ensure that additional kids wouldn't factor into my future. Perhaps Chiri and Shan weren't careful, or perhaps they were and their measures failed.
But if its THAT earth shattering to her to have a Light Elf, she shouldnt have taken the chance. Since she wasnt certain that she was going to be a colonist (obviously didnt think so at all really) then all she had to do is wait until she was back home to make love with shan. I mean this is Chiri. A lack of self discipline isnt one of her character faults.

AnoP wrote: Well to be fair to Smokehammer, historical contraceptive methods is a bit esoteric. He may be under the impression that they didn't exist. Methods did exist ( I don't even know how tortoise shell condoms would work though), and the Romans supposedly made Silphium extinct, which was possibly a plant whose seeds could be used for birth control.

But yeah, basically it's completely unclear if they would have had any effective way to prevent pregnancy, or they used it. So it's a bit whatever basically.
I know about some, hell the Egyptians had IUDs last I read and the withdraw method works to a fair degree of useful - and has pretty much been around for forever. That being said, in this "mothers are everything" alien culture they have, nobody has ever mentioned birth control so Im going to assume it doesnt exist until mentioned otherwise.

Faeryn wrote:Entirely possible sex education isn't exactly a priority among the Ssu. There's been a few hints that they are rather bashful about the subject.
Im pretty sure they know where babies come from. But if they dont thats even more amusing.

Runes wrote:Women go through enough emotionally while pregnant, they don't need to be exposed to that kind of disgusting ignorance. Even when a pregnancy is planned you can spend all 9 months terrified about whether or not you made the right decision. Add to that the worry you might give birth to a child that is different, and a freak-out like this is almost to be expected. The last thing any woman in this position would ever need is to be told 'tough luck, you did this to yourself'.
She's bitching at Shan that she didnt want any of this, but actually she did. There's nothing ignorant about fact. And no, she didnt do it alone but they were BOTH careless if it really matters that much to her. She cant rant and rave about how other's are making her life choices for her and be taken seriously when she's blatantly refusing to acknowledge her part in this conception. Now if we find out next page drow do indeed have birth control and it failed, well ok. I take it back.

Never been pregnant and enjoyed all the hormones that come with it? You don't get an opinion.
Really? I thought chalking a woman's behavior off to her hormones was a serious insult. But let me tell you about it from my side. I dont have sex with women I wouldnt want getting pregnant. Why? Because thats what sex does and no amount of birth control is full proof. You commit the crime, you do the time. That's called being a grown up about your actions. You dont get an opinion, or an option, you get to be "daddy". If you think otherwise youre a child who shouldnt be having sex anyway.

Its forgivable that Chiri's having a fit because she's young and she's worried sure and yes of course hindsight is 20/20. So my advice wouldnt be for Shan(or anyone else) to point out its her fault too, no. But from our PoV? Her gripe seems pretty goofy.
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Re: Chapter 53 : page 13

Postby Dybad » Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:19 pm

Wild question : don't drows have some form of abortion ? With such advanced mana arts of all kinds directly derived from their natural lifeforce (aura), shouldn't it be trivially easy to snuff out the feeble flame of a barely emerging life, at least for anyone with a bit of skill/practice in this field ?

Does such an advanced species really get randomly knocked up and just deal with it exactly like the beasts they use as mounts ?

Seriously ?

@ Runes & Faeryn : I acknowledge the validity of your points. Chiri has it real tough, her reaction is more than understandable in this situation, and I'm fairly certain most anyone in real-life would do the same if not worse in her place. Besides, she's not even blaming Shan (even though judging from his guilty reaction to the "Anahid's plan" remake and the following "it will be a girl" statement, she probably has reason to), she's just venting out her own suffering, fear and despair.
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Re: Chapter 53 : page 13

Postby wolfdancer95 » Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:55 pm

Dybad wrote:Wild question : don't drows have some form of abortion ? With such advanced mana arts of all kinds directly derived from their natural lifeforce (aura), shouldn't it be trivially easy to snuff out the feeble flame of a barely emerging life, at least for anyone with a bit of skill/practice in this field ?

Does such an advanced species really get randomly knocked up and just deal with it exactly like the beasts they use as mounts ?

Seriously ?

@ Runes & Faeryn : I acknowledge the validity of your points. Chiri has it real tough, her reaction is more than understandable in this situation, and I'm fairly certain most anyone in real-life would do the same if not worse in her place. Besides, she's not even blaming Shan (even though judging from his guilty reaction to the "Anahid's plan" remake and the following "it will be a girl" statement, she probably has reason to), she's just venting out her own suffering, fear and despair.


I feel it's mainly to do with culture to go through with a pregnancy, especially since mastering summoning requires it, to learn to summon they need to learn how to separate the baby and her own aura (I think just to sense it? I'm not sure exactly), so they can do it with summons. it's possible that a considerably powerful drow/elf CAN 'snuff' the life out of a baby in their womb, but that would only be after a considerable amount of time.

going on a tangent, from my recollection the drow have low birth rates, low enough that it might take years for a couple to conceive due to it, and zala's higher birth rate was explained to having her room close to that light pillar thing in chel so a great many of drow don't NEED the contraceptives. It's possible that being on the surface boosted their reproduction somehow.

Snad is accused of 'killing children in her womb" indicating that they do have ways of aborting, but are seen as unthinkable or to be looked down upon (if sillice is any indication). We also have to remember that the light elves were the opposite with a patriarchal society, so the ssu themselves might be more inclined to have mothers retire for children, as The Drowtales Facebook page told me that the mother is expected to raise her children despite her status.

All in all, Childbirth and pregnancy is a huge part of their culture and I don't think they have much in the way of contraceptives or abortion in the first place due to it.
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Re: Chapter 53 : page 13

Postby Runes » Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:25 pm

Smokehammer wrote:Really? I thought chalking a woman's behavior off to her hormones was a serious insult.

But from our PoV? Her gripe seems pretty goofy.


It's an insult if you use her hormones as an excuse to dismiss her. Which you then do several sentences later. Being terrified of having a child, especially one that likely be different and ostracized for it, is not goofy in the slightest.
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Re: Chapter 53 : page 13

Postby Dybad » Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:35 pm

@ wolfdancer95 :

Cultural circumstances aside and from a purely practical point of view, couldn't the manipulation of one's own aura be used to "crush the egg" on a spiritual level, especially since the egg's aura is basically one with the mother's at this stage ? Admitedly I can't imagine the ultra-conservative Suu approving such a thing, but technically it doesn't seem much more complicated than spiritually reaching in and and popping a pimple (apologies for the disturbing wording/imagery ^ ^;).
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Re: Chapter 53 : page 13

Postby Moric » Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:09 pm

Dybad wrote:@ wolfdancer95 :

Cultural circumstances aside and from a purely practical point of view, couldn't the manipulation of one's own aura be used to "crush the egg" on a spiritual level, especially since the egg's aura is basically one with the mother's at this stage ? Admitedly I can't imagine the ultra-conservative Suu approving such a thing, but technically it doesn't seem much more complicated than spiritually reaching in and and popping a pimple (apologies for the disturbing wording/imagery ^ ^;).

To my knowledge, the Jaal Clan are believed to have been practicing this very thing to eliminate any and all male offspring.

I would also contend that the mother's aura is necessarily distinct from the child's at conception, as the taint is not a congenitally transferred to the offspring.

That said, I would suspect that drow abortion would necessitate blood arts to poison or starve the placenta. Considering that, and the difficulty with high arts, those two options are risky for the mother at best. With that in mind, I suspect that simply preventing ovulation would be both easier and safer.
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Re: Chapter 53 : page 13

Postby Smokehammer » Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 pm

Runes wrote:
Smokehammer wrote:Really? I thought chalking a woman's behavior off to her hormones was a serious insult.

But from our PoV? Her gripe seems pretty goofy.


It's an insult if you use her hormones as an excuse to dismiss her. Which you then do several sentences later. Being terrified of having a child, especially one that likely be different and ostracized for it, is not goofy in the slightest.


No I didnt. I said her youth was a factor, and she was justified in being worried that the kid would be different. That's a fine reason to be upset -what looks goofy is that she's claiming she didnt get to choose to have this kid, but the reality is, yes she did. Basically she's using the wrong argument. Is that because she's upset and not being super logical because of her hormones? Maybe, but that seems pretty damn out of character for Chiri. "I didnt think before I acted" isnt behavior I'd expect out of the character. Ergo, this looks like random venting at Shan, who as she points out next page absolutely shouldve "married" her before she was pregnant. That's a FAR better reason for her to be pissed off at him.
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Re: Chapter 53 : page 13

Postby Pitdragon » Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:58 am

Smokehammer wrote:
Runes wrote:
Smokehammer wrote:Really? I thought chalking a woman's behavior off to her hormones was a serious insult.

But from our PoV? Her gripe seems pretty goofy.


It's an insult if you use her hormones as an excuse to dismiss her. Which you then do several sentences later. Being terrified of having a child, especially one that likely be different and ostracized for it, is not goofy in the slightest.


No I didnt. I said her youth was a factor, and she was justified in being worried that the kid would be different. That's a fine reason to be upset -what looks goofy is that she's claiming she didnt get to choose to have this kid, but the reality is, yes she did. Basically she's using the wrong argument. Is that because she's upset and not being super logical because of her hormones? Maybe, but that seems pretty damn out of character for Chiri. "I didnt think before I acted" isnt behavior I'd expect out of the character. Ergo, this looks like random venting at Shan, who as she points out next page absolutely shouldve "married" her before she was pregnant. That's a FAR better reason for her to be pissed off at him.


Eh, again, I'm probably being really forgiving by chalking that up less to "I didn't ask for any pregnancy" and more of a feeling the only reason she's there and pregnant is that Ana is pulling strings and deciding when and where. Perhaps if they were in Chel she would feel different, as the chance of her child also being a light elf wouldn't up the pressure to that level, or that feeling of being "trapped" now on the Surface to raise a kid where they'll have a better chance at not being ostracized (and we learn from one of the Vaelia Paths that most Drow see Chel as "home" and will sort of want to return to it even with the bounty of the Surface before them, so being forced to stay for the child's sake is like being exiled in a sense). Hard to say, but I think her reaction is more of a perfect storm of certain circumstances playing together.

Perhaps her points could've been worded better, I always give leeway for what the author thinks sounds good but could confuse a reader or two looking at it from various angles. So there's that too.
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Re: Chapter 53 : page 13

Postby Smokehammer » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:28 pm

Pitdragon wrote:Eh, again, I'm probably being really forgiving by chalking that up less to "I didn't ask for any pregnancy" and more of a feeling the only reason she's there and pregnant is that Ana is pulling strings and deciding when and where. Perhaps if they were in Chel she would feel different, as the chance of her child also being a light elf wouldn't up the pressure to that level, or that feeling of being "trapped" now on the Surface to raise a kid where they'll have a better chance at not being ostracized (and we learn from one of the Vaelia Paths that most Drow see Chel as "home" and will sort of want to return to it even with the bounty of the Surface before them, so being forced to stay for the child's sake is like being exiled in a sense). Hard to say, but I think her reaction is more of a perfect storm of certain circumstances playing together.

Perhaps her points could've been worded better, I always give leeway for what the author thinks sounds good but could confuse a reader or two looking at it from various angles. So there's that too.


But the underlined is the silly part. I understand that she's an "unplanned mom" and freaking out but why is that solely Ana's (and Shan's) fault? Ana could've sent her to the surface sure, but she couldve spent that time burning down forests & scouting the surface for resources. Whatever. She however, choose to spend at least some of that time with the love of her life, expressing that joy with him. Oops. Its ok to freak out and say shit you havent thought through though* but we as readers tend to pick details apart and look at shit from an obtuse angles just for the hell of it mostly. *wee*

*lord knows Im guilty of this myself
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Re: Chapter 53 : page 13

Postby Mycosa » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:43 pm

I actually like Chiri taking initiative in this. She knows what she wants, but also what she doesn't want. Necessity might require her to put some things on hold while she and Shan rear their child, but especially when one lives with the prospect of centuries before them, there is absolutely no need for her to resign herself to a sedentary life.

That's the thing that gets me here. There is no reason that both of them can't have what they've been working on. They can have their home in the colonies as a base of operations, yet still also return to the underground and lead their people. They can have their child, and yet not give up their dreams. The concerns of now do not demand that they forsake their dreams of the future to address them.

I also like how Shan responded to her desire to exchange vows so fast. Sort of a "... really?" I get the feeling that what matters to him is that the exchange happen, not the ceremony. My worry is that he may be forsaking his own dreams a bit for the sake of her wishes... but then, compromise is part of love, and for all I know "Her happiness" might very well be what his dreams are.

And if so, that's a beautiful thing. His devotion is beyond question; his affection beyond doubt; his love, a thing of beauty.

Good for them, I say. Just... don't forget to make a home while you're busy forging a destiny.
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