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chapter 52 : Page 1

Re: chapter 52 : Page 1

Postby Nowhere Girl » Sun May 14, 2017 3:19 am

Obsidian Agent wrote:And if you want to see a reversal of the species' power levels, I'd recommend reading the thread on Spacebattles where DT had the misfortune of going up against... The Wheel of Time. Which... did not go well for the Drow. At all.


Oh, well, sure; there are lots of settings that have human characters who are ridiculously more powerful than Drowtales drow, especially anime settings like Slayers, Berserk and, god forbid, One Piece. Even the D&D settings that originally inspired Drowtales feature characters who completely surpass DT drow (they start out weaker but can quickly eclipse them), whether you're talking about D&D humans, halflings, dwarves, elves or even ... drow!

But within the context of their own setting, DT drow are stupidly overpowered to the point of making any non-drow "threat" borderline laughable.
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Re: chapter 52 : Page 1

Postby Basileus_Ioannis » Sun May 14, 2017 3:26 am

ThatGuyThisGuy wrote:Is that Herm at the center of the bottom panel wearing a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_coif or just an especially ragged cloth wrapping?

It looks like he's wearing a coif, perhaps wrapped in cloth for winter protection. The grunts might be wearing just cloth aventails, I dunno. Notable also that their helms appear to be cloth covered, notice the seam on that fellow with the coif

In the second sub-panel where they're stomping on the yellow flowers, the Herm on the left definitely seems to be wearing mail on his arm. Most appear to be wearing gambesons, perhaps a hauberk over that for officers/commanders, and a buff coat over all as winter wear/poor man's cuirass
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Re: chapter 52 : Page 1

Postby ThatGuyThisGuy » Sun May 14, 2017 3:57 am

Basileus_Ioannis wrote:
ThatGuyThisGuy wrote:Is that Herm at the center of the bottom panel wearing a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_coif or just an especially ragged cloth wrapping?

It looks like he's wearing a coif, perhaps wrapped in cloth for winter protection. The grunts might be wearing just cloth aventails, I dunno. Notable also that their helms appear to be cloth covered, notice the seam on that fellow with the coif

In the second sub-panel where they're stomping on the yellow flowers, the Herm on the left definitely seems to be wearing mail on his arm. Most appear to be wearing gambesons, perhaps a hauberk over that for officers/commanders, and a buff coat over all as winter wear/poor man's cuirass


Hmmm your probably right though it may just be that mail is one of the few things that Kern just isn't good at drawing.

They also seem to be wearing pauldrons as well, going back to the first panel the one with mail covered arms is wearing a pauldron made from a light colored metal(presumably steel), and one of the dudes in the bottom panels is wearing a single bronze pauldron on his right shoulder which brings up the question of why their using different metals for their armor especially since bronze is expensive compared to iron and its unlikely it was looted from the Halmes since they are significantly smaller then Herms and armor fitted for them is unlikely to fit on a Herm.

Also in that top panel the guy to the right seems be wearing a bronze cuirass(It really doesn't seem to be a shield since he clearly has his shield held in his left arm.), though I wonder if those vests their wearing are some kind of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_plates or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigandine since if you look closely at the guy at the bottom you'll notice what seems to be studs on his vest(Though not many so it probably isn't Brigandine.) and it has an irregular pattern and though it may just be me but it looks a little rigid, and looking back at the bronze pauldron guy and the dude kicking to the right their vests are held together by straps at the back which is a feature common in armor but is generally pretty rare in clothes(This was not universal and it bears mentioning Brigandine usually had straps at the front.). Also such armor was usually issued as general use armor for common soldiers so it makes sense it would universal equipment for the Herms.
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Re: chapter 52 : Page 1

Postby Gunbird » Sun May 14, 2017 4:20 am

Obsidian Agent wrote:
Adelor wrote:
Obsidian Agent wrote:
Although, as Khora and Smoke beat into my head, there are no actual human in DT - only very very human-like goblins (whatever the flying fuck THAT means).


The "Goblins" in Drowtales are not like the goblins in DnD or WoW. The term "goblin" is more like a racial slur used by the drow to refer to the non-fay whom they see as inferior.


That's what I thought too, until Khora and Smoke repeatedly told me that the "very very human-like goblins" was what Kern had said.


"Goblin" is also used on the on Noz and Kotorcs, which don't like the humans.
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Re: chapter 52 : Page 1

Postby Gunbird » Sun May 14, 2017 4:23 am

abadidea wrote:I honestly really enjoy the conceit that the races that we the readers identify as "us" are lumped in as goblins and not separated into a distinct "human" category in the viewpoint eyes of elves. Why *should* we be considered fundamentally different from goblins or orcs really? :V


Because our brains are jerks.
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Re: chapter 52 : Page 1

Postby Junglefowl26 » Sun May 14, 2017 6:25 am

So it has been three years.

....I guess no one has changed their outfits since then. :@

Thank Sharess that Thera will be there to avert fashion disaster.

Also, I am curious what Ariel has been up to, how the Sarghress has been running this whole time, and the status of the clan in general and Ariel in particular in the alliance. Is she the recognized clan leader? Has she been going to meetings? After 3 years can they really say "still waiting for things to settle"?

As for the threat poised by the Hermoine...eh....
1. We don't have any named characters or cameos on the Hermoine side (well, the king might have a name floating around somewhere, but still.) There are a bunch on the drow side.

2. They are attacking in the beginning of the chapter - a long chapter at that. I doubt we are getting 100 pages of Hermoine battle. This isn't a climax so much as a setting of the stage.

I expect this will mostly show us how our characters have grown over the years, and show their skills.

Secondarily...I think this might be a catalyst for a further conflict within our established cast of characters. I mean, the Nids, the Alliance, an alliance of colonials, some scientists, and the Nids are all getting mixed up with this and I don't think it will be a feel good story of all of them working together against the Hermoines and roasting marshmellows.


Edit: About Drowtales goblins - that term includes humans and orcs, but it is not all non-Fae - ferals and dwarves are not referred to as goblins, and if I remember correctly, dwarves are referred to as elementals despite not having any sorcerer.
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Re: chapter 52 : Page 1

Postby Marcellogo » Sun May 14, 2017 6:36 am

Goblin there is an equivalent of the original barbaros terms used by greeks o Aneran used by Persians: all people that doesn't share our civilization/culture/language or in case of Drow/Faeries Mana.
For the rest, there is not a common stance of drow about Goblins, Nal'sarkhot and Sarghress has them in their clan while Crys'tel i.e. one of the most morally excellent person in all drowtales considered them akin to beasts.
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Re: chapter 52 : Page 1

Postby Marcellogo » Sun May 14, 2017 6:59 am

Junglefowl26 wrote:So it has been three years.

....I guess no one has changed their outfits since then. :@

Thank Sharess that Thera will be there to avert fashion disaster.

Also, I am curious what Ariel has been up to, how the Sarghress has been running this whole time, and the status of the clan in general and Ariel in particular in the alliance. Is she the recognized clan leader? Has she been going to meetings? After 3 years can they really say "still waiting for things to settle"?

As for the threat poised by the Hermoine...eh....
1. We don't have any named characters or cameos on the Hermoine side (well, the king might have a name floating around somewhere, but still.) There are a bunch on the drow side.

2. They are attacking in the beginning of the chapter - a long chapter at that. I doubt we are getting 100 pages of Hermoine battle. This isn't a climax so much as a setting of the stage.

Kern there are using what is the most ancient trope of all Western civilization, the in medias res narration, a trademark of Epic works, hence my comment to Kern about being serious about making this chapter such.
You doesn't begin the whole story from the beginning but start with a climatic moment happening maybe even ten years after it (see Iliad) and recall past events after, usually trought a narration the main hero do after finding refuge during an exile (or also during conversation).
The reason for this is the same you highlight there : you can't make an hundred not just pages but even chapters (see Dante's Commedia but there are other way longer Epic works) as it were a mere war cronicle, you have to vary settings and tones.
Last edited by Marcellogo on Sun May 14, 2017 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: chapter 52 : Page 1

Postby Junglefowl26 » Sun May 14, 2017 7:24 am

To add on to what I was saying before:
Since this is a story, I like to focus on the story telling potential first and foremost, any unexpected history can occur if that is what the story wills - like the Rebel Alliance victory with the help of Ewoks on Endor.

From an in-universe perspective - I can see how people would look at the drow's advantages and think it is an utter curbstomp.
But I am sure most people would think the same of the US going up against little Vietnam, or Greece against Persia or Imagawa vs Nobonaga, or a thousand other upset victories throughout history.

It is important to consider that the drow's greatest strength - mana - is also their greatest weakness. Just existing on the surface can be exhausting for drow, much less using their fancy mana stuff.
- Golems? Those are draining even in the midst of the strongest mana pools. On the surface, I imagine the big golems would be utterly unusable and even the smaller ones could only operate briefly.
-Sorcery? Also drains quickly. A scary flash at the beginning of a fight, but if it drags on the elves are left exhausted
-Other mana arts - many flat out do not work, or only have a limited effect, on non-fae targets.

Now, drow are big and strong and have better metallurgy and even gunpowder now, so even without mana they are tough - but nothing numbers and cunning can't handle.

Also worth noting is that the Hermoine know the terrain - this can be devastating even just when discussing different topologies, but fighting in narrow tunnels and streets and fighting in the vast overworld are completely different things. Besides the lack of mana, most drow warriors would have no experience dealing with snow*, rain, changing temperatures, lightning etc. Not to mention the importance of maneuver warfare - in particular, drow armies are not used to dealing with large cavalry forces operating on open terrain. Archery is also somewhat limited among the drow to sniping, so volley fire tactics might be hard to deal with. And horse archers? Pretty difficult.

The highland raiders and colonial militia might be better off, but are probably limited in their experience to small skirmishes.

*In all fairness, most premodern armies could not deal with snow at all, and did not fight in the winter. This is part of the reason Washington's crossing of the Delaware was so successful. The fact that the Hermoine are able to launch a winter attack despite being early medieval is very impressive.

Another advantage is political will. The Hermoine are religious fanatics - the drow support for consolidation comes and goes, and is half-heartedly supported even when going well. As Quain explained to Ariel, sometimes a superior foe can simply be worn down and outlasted rather than directly outfought.**

So a Hermoine general who was willing to accept losses yet tried to minimize them and preserve his forces, who did everything he could to make the battle one of attrition and will, can absolutely beat drow forces, particularly any army fresh from the underworld.

But I don't see them being narratively important enough for that to matter, so probably we will see a hermoine force use a direct approach and be overmatched.

** Those as long as politics are brought into it, it should be remembered that the Hermoine are not well loved among the Halms they conquered, so drow commanders willing to ally with and supply halm rebels may soon find most of the hermoine's advantages negated. Perhaps this is where Ariel and Vaelia come in....

Kern there are using what is the most ancient trope of all Western civilization, the in medias res narration, a trademark of Epic works, hence my comment to Kern about being serious about making this chapter such.
You doesn't begin the whole story from the beginning but start with a climatic moment happening maybe even ten years after it (see Iliad) and recall past events after, usually trought a narration the main hero do after finding refuge during an exile (or also during conversation).
The reason for this is the same you highlight there : you can make an hundred not just pages but even chapters (see Dante's Commedia but there are other way longer Epic works) as it were a war cronicle.

Eh, possibly, but that still doesn't explain where most of the cameos fit in.
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Re: chapter 52 : Page 1

Postby Doom Chinchilla » Sun May 14, 2017 7:56 am

Smokehammer wrote:I think it was mentioned though that Kotorc had been replaced by Noz or were similar, but I cant remember where. However, Im pretty sure Hermionne were part Noz as mentioned in a livestream -but since Im not 100% sure, its a good question to ask in the next one!


These short yellow guys are Kotorcs:

http://pathtopower.wikia.com/wiki/Kotorcs
http://www.drowtales.com/mainarchive.php?id=1417
http://www.drowtales.com/mainarchive.php?sid=8848
http://www.drowtales.com/mainarchive.php?sid=8852

The furry lady is a Noz. In the last link, Kern explains the difference.

http://www.drowtales.com/mainarchive.php?id=1454
http://www.drowtales.com/mainarchive.ph ... rs&id=1455
http://www.drowtales.com/wordpress/?p=2824

The problem is, Kern was still using traditional D&D races until Arc II. He decided to get rid of Minotaurs, Ogres, Orcs, Half-Orcs... etc., but orcish characters were too present in the plot to be removed, so he replaced Orcs with Kotorcs and Noz.

These early examples are neither Noz nor Kotorcs, but rather old-school Orcs:

http://www.drowtales.com/mainarchive.php?id=203
http://www.drowtales.com/mainarchive.php?sid=799
http://www.drowtales.com/mainarchive.php?id=295
http://www.drowtales.com/mainarchive.php?id=302

And here we have the transition. A tall, athletic Noz-like Orc and several short, stocky Kotorc-like Orcs in the same page, but they are still recognizable as members of the same race with different body builds here (same nose, eyes, mouth, tusks and skin coloration). The Kotorc/Noz split hasn't still happened:

http://www.drowtales.com/mainarchive.php?id=383
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Re: chapter 52 : Page 1

Postby Marcellogo » Sun May 14, 2017 10:46 am

Junglefowl26 wrote:
Kern there are using what is the most ancient trope of all Western civilization, the in medias res narration, a trademark of Epic works, hence my comment to Kern about being serious about making this chapter such.
You doesn't begin the whole story from the beginning but start with a climatic moment happening maybe even ten years after it (see Iliad) and recall past events after, usually trought a narration the main hero do after finding refuge during an exile (or also during conversation).
The reason for this is the same you highlight there : you can make an hundred not just pages but even chapters (see Dante's Commedia but there are other way longer Epic works) as it were a war cronicle.

Eh, possibly, but that still doesn't explain where most of the cameos fit in.

Epic poetic language is really a whole collection of tropes, one of them the Catalogue or Battle order would as an example fit the need perfectly well as it list the single contingents of an huge multinational (multi clans in-universe) army, highligting the heroes commanding them, some to become main characters, others just cameos, often to be killed in scores by them.
Not that i'm expecting to see something similar there but if you look back in chapter 0 you have a damn good graphical rendition of this trope with the different Sharen's armies going to battle and their leaders.
http://www.drowtales.com/mainarchive.php?sid=4232
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Re: chapter 52 : Page 1

Postby Sonor Val'Illhar'dro » Sun May 14, 2017 5:22 pm

Good luck taking Machike, the most heavily contested fortress in the Underworld
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Re: chapter 52 : Page 1

Postby ThatGuyThisGuy » Sun May 14, 2017 7:01 pm

Sonor Val'Illhar'dro wrote:Good luck taking Machike, the most heavily contested fortress in the Underworld


Depends, just how much of Machikes vaunted defenses are focused beneath the ground where the fortress designers expect the strongest foes to come from?
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Re: chapter 52 : Page 1

Postby Marcellogo » Sun May 14, 2017 9:29 pm

Sonor Val'Illhar'dro wrote:Good luck taking Machike, the most heavily contested fortress in the Underworld


No good look at all but even the most umpregnable fortress can be taken, given the time, persistence and good logistics.
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Re: chapter 52 : Page 1

Postby Basileus_Ioannis » Mon May 15, 2017 6:01 am

ThatGuyThisGuy wrote:They also seem to be wearing pauldrons as well, going back to the first panel the one with mail covered arms is wearing a pauldron made from a light colored metal(presumably steel), and one of the dudes in the bottom panels is wearing a single bronze pauldron on his right shoulder which brings up the question of why their using different metals for their armor especially since bronze is expensive compared to iron and its unlikely it was looted from the Halmes since they are significantly smaller then Herms and armor fitted for them is unlikely to fit on a Herm.
Might not be bronze, but red paint, perhaps to denote rank/function (an aside: the first thing I thought about when I saw the ruddy pauldron was the anime Armored Trooper VOTOMS, they had an elite unit of mechs with red painted shoulder pieces)
ThatGuyThisGuy also wrote:Also in that top panel the guy to the right seems be wearing a bronze cuirass(It really doesn't seem to be a shield since he clearly has his shield held in his left arm.),
It's a bit dark brown for bronze (it's probably a matter of alloy ratio, but most bronze armor I've seen photos of look golden amber), and appears to be projecting out from his back, so I'd figure he's one of the few who are wearing leather backpacks (perhaps a sapper? medic? RATELO? ;) )
ThatGuyThisGuy also wrote:though I wonder if those vests their wearing are some kind of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_plates or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigandine since if you look closely at the guy at the bottom you'll notice what seems to be studs on his vest(Though not many so it probably isn't Brigandine.) and it has an irregular pattern and though it may just be me but it looks a little rigid, and looking back at the bronze pauldron guy and the dude kicking to the right their vests are held together by straps at the back which is a feature common in armor but is generally pretty rare in clothes(This was not universal and it bears mentioning Brigandine usually had straps at the front.). Also such armor was usually issued as general use armor for common soldiers so it makes sense it would universal equipment for the Herms.
Yeah the rear lacing is throwing me for a loop too, and would be inconvenient for the wearer, would require a buddy to lace him up or undo it so he can take off his armor (if he falls into deep water, good luck fella). And I agree, the pips look too few and small to be studs for armor, so I'd venture a guess that it's some sort of quilting, which would coincide with the vertical seams (brigandine would tend to have beau coup rivets, but it might be hidden by the outer layer of quilted cloth). In any case, these Herms look rather well equipped and organized, the Machike defenders are gonna have their hands full B)
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