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Chapter 46 : Page 54

Re: Chapter 46 : Page 54

Postby Naur » Sat Jun 14, 2014 6:44 pm

Kaiser wrote:While personally, I feel the joke on this page went a bit too far, my problem lies not with the content but with how clumsily said content is handled and spliced into the stor. Thus, it's also not just a case of personal preferences but, in my opinion, of the actual storytelling being bad.


No, how you are phrasing it, it's sounding more like something else. Rather, it seems to be problems with one aspect of the storytelling, a relevant concern mind you as you do bring up some good points. Structure, however, is only a small part of a story, and does not on its own make the quality of the storytelling bad. Take the Lord of the Rings trilogy (books, not the movies). By literary standards, the structure of that story is horrid, yet the story itself is considered classic and beloved by many. It's not dependent on the structuring of the narrative to deliver its intended effect. Now you have a webcomic series, something that by its nature will have its pacing determined by the speed of its updates (which in this case is surprisingly quick), and, unlike a classic narrative, more then likely does not undergo a large amount of the usual meticulous process for refining a story; rough drafts, workshopping, ect. Then, take into account the fact that this comic has been going on for a very long time, by web comic standards. So what we have is a very small sampling on a long running series subjected to the bare minimum of the narrative editing process, and by this you are claiming the storytelling is bad? While you may bring up good points, it still sounds more like a personal taste issue when it comes to the narrative as a whole (this with regards to the criticism of the post time skip story, your points about the emotional whiplash are sound, my point is that this small set of slip ups does not justify passing judgement on the arc as a whole.)
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Re: Chapter 46 : Page 54

Postby Naur » Sat Jun 14, 2014 6:47 pm

Shrg wrote:
Hellsion wrote:
X_SapphireDream_X wrote:I'll probably just skip the next couple of pages until things get interesting again. :]

THE OWLIES ARE COMING!

they have the same schedule as Halflife 3 so it should be soon.

Hey they got distracted by some yummy looking mice on the way. YOu cant fight on an empty stomache!


Wait, wait, I just got it.....this whole thing is one big Game of Thrones/south park reference gag!

The author constantly claiming the owls (dragons) are coming
Randomly placed phallic objects and unusual emphasis put on them
.....it all makes perfect sense now!
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Re: Chapter 46 : Page 54

Postby Kaiser » Sat Jun 14, 2014 6:54 pm

I'm not saying the storytelling is all bad. This particular aspect of it is bad, however, and I feel like it's getting worse in this regard which is starting to negatively impact my enjoyment of the story. This particular issue isn't quite as bad as the whole Hermione attack in a previous chapter or the castle infiltration from way back in the pre-timeskip days. It is distracting to me though, and I wish some more restraint was shown in when and where humor is inserted into the story. There is a time and place for it; with so much else going on, this is not the place.

Although I won't lie, I prefer a more deadpan type of humor than what we've been getting lately, but as long as it doesn't get out of hand, I can tolerate it.
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Re: Chapter 46 : Page 54

Postby Whizzard » Sat Jun 14, 2014 6:57 pm

The real issue isn't that the storylines mood is swinging around. The issue is that there are several intersecting storylines some serious but some such as Kiel's and Ariel's are light hearted and humorous. The issue results in apparently some readers unable to keep up with the moods of the intersecting plot lines.

Or rather the issue is that these events happen at the same time and can not be shown in sequence or timeline would get messed up. You would constantly be turning back time to show what happened at the same time creating mucho chaoz.
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Re: Chapter 46 : Page 54

Postby Jiharn » Sat Jun 14, 2014 7:04 pm

Obsidian Agent wrote:It's also an adequate response to claims of Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy.

"Hey, you think DT is bad? Check out THIS clusterfuck!"


I mean no offense or disagreement with your statement. But I've always been confused by how an argument would say something isn't bad because something else is worse. If something is already "bad", something that's worse just means a comparison between "bad" and "more bad" and does not change whether the original thing was "bad". Wouldn't it be more sensible to determine whether the current matter fits the standards for "bad" instead of how something else fits the standards for "bad"?
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Re: Chapter 46 : Page 54

Postby Hellsion » Sat Jun 14, 2014 7:22 pm

Naur wrote:
Hellsion wrote:
X_SapphireDream_X wrote:I'll probably just skip the next couple of pages until things get interesting again. :]

THE OWLIES ARE COMING!

they have the same schedule as Halflife 3 so it should be soon.


Wait, wait, I just got it.....this whole thing is one big Game of Thrones/south park reference gag!

The author constantly claiming the owls (dragons) are coming
Randomly placed phallic objects and unusual emphasis put on them
.....it all makes perfect sense now!


True http://youtu.be/nBcnliSUtb8

notice all the phallic thingies
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Re: Chapter 46 : Page 54

Postby Jiharn » Sat Jun 14, 2014 7:45 pm

Obsidian Agent wrote:It's more a matter of perspective. Sometimes, when you see something bad enough, you'll look back on what you thought was bad originally, and then go "Huh, you know what? Maybe X wasn't so bad after all. Now that we've got Y to compare it to, I forget what was so bad about X in the first place."


Okedokey. So it's not so much an argument as offering another data point that might induce one's standards to change, which might change enough so that the original matter falls into a different threshold?
I don't think that's a very good example for your point, though, since you're acknowledging Synnibar is still bad either way, which was the only scale under question. xD
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Re: Chapter 46 : Page 54

Postby 'Lement » Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:29 pm

Good points on mood whipslash above. I agree that some past pages have given some impression of that, but the majority of DT is rather dark so it is hard to find a place where it wouldn't be whipslash. ^^;

However, addressing "story over service" sort of things above....It would have to be quite exclusively to be story over service. I'm annoyed, frankly, over how much some people focus on the service here, and negative feelings over this feel way worse than positive akin to what alkaizer87 used to post *wutno*

There have been several mentions of the interesting foreshadowing in here, regarding the contrast with war spanning back to pages years old, contrast of attitudes between Faen'arae and Ariel.....They're plot and character development, and they're interesting. :] That was mostly up to 4th page, though.

What complications will happen when the invited and intruding Sarghress squads collide? :S
What are the consequences on Kiel for letting Ere'lice leave on herself? :[
What are the consequences on invited Sarghress squad for the jailbreak from others? They would be prime suspects, along with Kyonne *omfg*

How come Faen, traumatized, and Ariel, positive before timeskip, now have such reversed attitudes despite living together? *ooo*
Doesn't Faen make that comfy bed dirty? :@
The dissonance of wood making places expensive is really apparent - to address earlier point about this appearing expensive to them. Though at least Ariel comments on the expensiveness of room before even entering the doorway. :V
I recall that Mel also went up in elevator, wonder if her room is close to mother's? :D
I belive this is also the first page where we've seen that Faen wears armor under her robe, unless I forgot some? It makes sense to have armour, but it makes me wonder at the difference with other Sarghress squad member.s

I agree on some characters being a bit of caricatures since some time ago. That's a good point. :x

Yet over half the discussion is something that got the attention of 2 panels in 8 panel comic, half of it negative. Grimdark blood and gore, as seen in the war chapters are as much as fanservice as T&A, yet this gets even more attention than both of it combined? I bet this would have gotten not over four mentions if it had been chocolate Faen found instead. :(

Now, I wouldn't mind the attention so much, if it didn't feel like irking over a detail. If you come out of lurking or become a member to say (not sure which, didn't check while writing) that you find fanservice irksome, it's fine, but if you're going to say that you much prefer story, then please don't just tease me with just preferring story, please also do comment on the story, even if it is just within the work of current page's consequences. I like interesting thoughts and speculations on even the 1-panel miniature details like the comparision between that floater's rock and airship's one, especially as those mentions often have caught things I personally missed, and I'm sure the writer likes to hear what people think on story too ;)

X_SapphireDream_X wrote:Exactly. Besides, why even have a subscription to Daydream anymore if you get service right away for free in the main story?

I don't know, it could just be me, afterall. But I'm the kind of person who wants to see a story progress through non-fanservicy means, so to speak.

Besides, what's the extra value of seeing Ariel and Faen in a sexual scene right now? What does it add to their characters? As has been said before, they're an established couple now. Do we need to know precisely how they have sex now, how they finger each other now or something? Don't know, just wondering. I'd rather see them exchange kisses or hugs now and then instead of seeing dildo's every now and then. Sex is one thing, affection another. And in most cases, it's the latter which keeps a relationship working.


First of all, DD is far more than just fanservice - it's choose your own adventure genre. While some of the earlier stories are more focused on plain sexual stuff, authors did state that they desire for stories to be stories, not merely smut. To the point, I feel like dismissing works like Space Age or SlaveMaster as merely 'boobies' is overly harsh.

Second, I think you're missing most of the panels here when you call this page to a sexual scene, even ignoring first panel. And to address, I don't feel it has anything sexual happening in it at all - Faen hides the dildo for Ariel, but is it because she's embrassed or because she wants to keep it secret or to herself? Or perhaps she's perceptive enough to realize that seeing 'high-class' toy now would only make Ariel even more sour?

Third, we don't precisely need them have sex, nor will that happen on-screen in MA archieve - it has been limited to kisses and hugs with some nudity shots in there for a long time. However, for worldbuilding and characters both, there is a saying - "show, don't tell", that goes double when doing visual media. Imagine if we had been told through other characters that Ariel and Faen finally kissed after 15 years of sleeping together, or never shown it, or if we had been told through reports to Koil'doriath that the district war is going on but never shown it? I think it'd be less memorable, certainly.

Fourth, as an aside I think it takes more than just a kiss to estabilish a couple. I'm noticing a trend that Faen tends to be always the agressor in the relationship, there have been mentions of Ariel being rather asexual/work-focused, and with it being entirely one-sided on affection a proper couple it does not make, not yet.

Kaiser wrote:Not to mention the humor coupled with Ariel philosophizing clashes with itself.

While it is a mood whipslash, I think character-wise, this is actually my most favorite part of this page, how Faen and Ariel read and work around each other's moods. Having one bitter and one excited makes one question the contrast, whereas normally we'd just go'd "eh, they're happy of nice place" or "they're dour from war contrast" as on so many pages before, now we can wonder about things like "is Faen happy due all the positive emotions around from party?" B)

I find forums so rarely wonder about mood and appropriateness of it for characters. Generally, people in DT react to same stimuli in similar way on same page.
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Re: Chapter 46 : Page 54

Postby Ichi_Jigoku_Flujo » Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:43 pm

>.>; Well I like comedy to balance out the seriousness personally, I find if there is too much serious, it just becomes tiring.
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Re: Chapter 46 : Page 54

Postby Dalvyserran » Sat Jun 14, 2014 10:09 pm

'Lement wrote:Fourth, as an aside I think it takes more than just a kiss to estabilish a couple. I'm noticing a trend that Faen tends to be always the agressor in the relationship, there have been mentions of Ariel being rather asexual/work-focused, and with it being entirely one-sided on affection a proper couple it does not make, not yet.


This is what I have perceived it to be. Faen is getting brave and more aggressive like her mom, while Ariel remains decidedly asexual and work oriented
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Re: Chapter 46 : Page 54

Postby Whizzard » Sun Jun 15, 2014 3:19 am

Dalvyserran wrote:
'Lement wrote:Fourth, as an aside I think it takes more than just a kiss to estabilish a couple. I'm noticing a trend that Faen tends to be always the agressor in the relationship, there have been mentions of Ariel being rather asexual/work-focused, and with it being entirely one-sided on affection a proper couple it does not make, not yet.


This is what I have perceived it to be. Faen is getting brave and more aggressive like her mom, while Ariel remains decidedly asexual and work oriented


Exactly like certain other Sarghress/Sullisinrune couple. ;)

I can imagine the mother daughter conversation Quain is going to have with Ariel.

Quain: I have noticed how that Sullisinrune girl, whatshername, has gotten... close with you.
Ariel: Uhhh, huuuh, er...
Quain: I have some friendl- I mean motherly advice for you in that regard.
Ariel: Huh?
Quain: If you ever feel you need some space or focus while she's getting... wilder, prodding your mind with them touchy feely tendrils, just grab them! Bite on them! Throw it to the grooouuuunndh! Stomp on them! That'll teach her to manipulate you feelings! Trying to make you FEEL GOOD!?! That's what I think of your good happy feelings, Ashwaren!!! Who wants to feel good, huh!?! Not me, nu-uh!!! *huff* *huff*
Ariel: Ummm... I'll try to keep that in mind, mother. ^^;
Quain: Good. Good... now go and think about this.
Ariel: I will.
Quain: *mumble* Stupid sexy Ashwaren... someone call that Sullisinrune bitch, tell I need to see her like right now! Quickly now! I need to discuss, uhhh, peace strategy. You know I'm no good with, umm, peace.
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Re: Chapter 46 : Page 54

Postby NexAngelus405 » Sun Jun 15, 2014 3:57 am

For some reason the first panel reminded me of this.

Image
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Re: Chapter 46 : Page 54

Postby suntiger745 » Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:02 am

I find this page interesting for what it reveals about drow (val) culture.
Placing a dildo as a gift in the guest rooms shows really well just how integrated sex is into the social setup of the val class.
The fact that there weren't any bowls with free dildos at Snadhya's reception also points to sex being something that is expected, but also expected to be done in private areas (though not necessarily behind closed doors).
Interesting difference to the Sullisin parties where public sex is available and expected (I assume privacy can be had if that is your wish as well).

Also interesting contrast between Ariel and Faen. Like someone pointed out, Faen is a very effective foil to Ariel. The latter is thinking like a val/leader, unable to enjoy things, always looking at the larger implications, while Faen is very much enjoying the moment.
I wonder if Faen is like that because of her trauma in the halme kingdom, or if this is her basic personality that has reasserted itself?
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Re: Chapter 46 : Page 54

Postby Whizzard » Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:36 am

suntiger745 wrote:I wonder if Faen is like that because of her trauma in the halme kingdom, or if this is her basic personality that has reasserted itself?


It's because of her genes. :P
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Re: Chapter 46 : Page 54

Postby Soleam'ji » Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:58 pm

It it just my imagination or does that toy have the same color and texture as the biogolem Ariel got from Mel so long ago?
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