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Chapter 54 : page 137

Re: Chapter 54 : page 137

Postby Dybad » Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:28 pm

I'm still amazed how much of a trash Sang proves to be with every breath, like she never was anything else.

Would Quain really have invested so much resource into restoring the mobility of someone so utterly dishonorable ?

Really can't shake the feeling she was villainfied during the time-skip to support the Sarg vs Sarg new narrative.

It rarely ever happens in DT, but in this case the in-universe context alone can't quite cover such a radical shift.
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 137

Postby Doom Chinchilla » Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:46 pm

Dybad wrote:I'm still amazed how much of a trash Sang proves to be with every breath, like she never was anything else.

Would Quain really have invested so much resource into restoring the mobility of someone so utterly dishonorable ?

Really can't shake the feeling she was villainfied during the time-skip to support the Sarg vs Sarg new narrative.

It rarely ever happens in DT, but in this case the in-universe context alone can't quite cover such a radical shift.


Quain allowed Suu'be, who couldn't stop herself from spewing traitorous crap and barely bothered to hide her intentions to get rid of Ariel while in front of Quain, to reach the rank of De'vess and commander of the Home Guard...

Sang is way more intelligent than Suu'be, she was able to play the loyal follower... So yes, I can see Quain overlooking Sang's ambition and treating her like an honored warrior...

The truth is, we never knew much about Sang. All she did was to support Quain's every decision (which would fit an ambitious manipulative schemer), smile and be nice to Ariel (which again, would fit a manipulative schemer) and send Ariel to quasi-suicidal missions...

We only saw what she wanted Quain and Ariel to see... So it's no wonder she looked good.

Koil'dorath was similar in that she always showed a facade of utter loyalty to Quain, but we, as readers, didn't know if it was real of fake... Some of her actions really made me believe she was trying to get rid of Ariel and steal the throne (when she sent Ariel to the jail where she was almost killed...).
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 137

Postby Zarannya » Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:39 pm

Doom Chinchilla wrote:
Dybad wrote:I'm still amazed how much of a trash Sang proves to be with every breath, like she never was anything else.

Would Quain really have invested so much resource into restoring the mobility of someone so utterly dishonorable ?

Really can't shake the feeling she was villainfied during the time-skip to support the Sarg vs Sarg new narrative.

It rarely ever happens in DT, but in this case the in-universe context alone can't quite cover such a radical shift.


Quain allowed Suu'be, who couldn't stop herself from spewing traitorous crap and barely bothered to hide her intentions to get rid of Ariel while in front of Quain, to reach the rank of De'vess and commander of the Home Guard...

Sang is way more intelligent than Suu'be, she was able to play the loyal follower... So yes, I can see Quain overlooking Sang's ambition and treating her like an honored warrior...

The truth is, we never knew much about Sang. All she did was to support Quain's every decision (which would fit an ambitious manipulative schemer), smile and be nice to Ariel (which again, would fit a manipulative schemer) and send Ariel to quasi-suicidal missions...

We only saw what she wanted Quain and Ariel to see... So it's no wonder she looked good.

Koil'dorath was similar in that she always showed a facade of utter loyalty to Quain, but we, as readers, didn't know if it was real of fake... Some of her actions really made me believe she was trying to get rid of Ariel and steal the throne (when she sent Ariel to the jail where she was almost killed...).



I agree with you on Sang - Sang has always shown herself to be supportive of Quain and the quintessential follower, which would have been an easy facade with Suu'be constantly mouthing off. But if Quain'tana knew about any of Sang's plots, we'll never know, as Suu'be again drew more attention and was more outwardly defiant. But...they were good fighters and commanders, so Quain had a reason to keep them both around. You don't have to like your soldiers to still respect their ability to fight, which is what the clan was all about. Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer, after all.

I do have to disagree, at least personally on Koil though - I read her as more of the unwitting person kind of shoved into a role she didn't want but who was prepared to try to take on the role for the sake of the clan. She seemed to just want to be a "regular soldier" but I would bet that half of her promotions (while deserved) might have been pushed by her ambitious mother. As for Koil tossing Ariel into the prison, that I think was more to keep her (as well as Riviel) out of the way since Quain was running rampant and carving her way through the home guard. She had just gotten back from "maneuvers" (at Sang's suggestion, to keep the troops occupied) and was still trying to figure out what was going on. She might have even hoped that putting Riviel and Ariel in the same cell would let them sort things out themselves, though it does seem more of a hasty decision. The other soldiers who were helping Riviel gang up on Ariel I think were locked up too - if they were all meant to kill Ariel, I don't think they would have all been split up two per cell.

Koil strikes me more as having been tossed into deep waters with little knowledge of ANYTHING going on, which is a problem in itself, and I think she got in over her head. Someone in that situation would be easy to manipulate, for sure, especially after Suu'be is killed right in front of her. I just think Koil wasn't...ready.
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 137

Postby Moric » Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:14 am

Doom Chinchilla wrote:Kel shouldn't lower his guard. He has to strike and kill Sang after the demon disables all of her golem limbs, but before she turns into a demon...

I wonder if Sang would sprout new limbs upon turning into a demon, or she will become some sort of Demon Worm...

The problem is that Sang's aura will still be available for possession, so the body must be utterly pulverized.
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 137

Postby Doom Chinchilla » Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:27 am

Zarannya wrote:
Doom Chinchilla wrote:
Dybad wrote:I'm still amazed how much of a trash Sang proves to be with every breath, like she never was anything else.

Would Quain really have invested so much resource into restoring the mobility of someone so utterly dishonorable ?

Really can't shake the feeling she was villainfied during the time-skip to support the Sarg vs Sarg new narrative.

It rarely ever happens in DT, but in this case the in-universe context alone can't quite cover such a radical shift.


Quain allowed Suu'be, who couldn't stop herself from spewing traitorous crap and barely bothered to hide her intentions to get rid of Ariel while in front of Quain, to reach the rank of De'vess and commander of the Home Guard...

Sang is way more intelligent than Suu'be, she was able to play the loyal follower... So yes, I can see Quain overlooking Sang's ambition and treating her like an honored warrior...

The truth is, we never knew much about Sang. All she did was to support Quain's every decision (which would fit an ambitious manipulative schemer), smile and be nice to Ariel (which again, would fit a manipulative schemer) and send Ariel to quasi-suicidal missions...

We only saw what she wanted Quain and Ariel to see... So it's no wonder she looked good.

Koil'dorath was similar in that she always showed a facade of utter loyalty to Quain, but we, as readers, didn't know if it was real of fake... Some of her actions really made me believe she was trying to get rid of Ariel and steal the throne (when she sent Ariel to the jail where she was almost killed...).



I agree with you on Sang - Sang has always shown herself to be supportive of Quain and the quintessential follower, which would have been an easy facade with Suu'be constantly mouthing off. But if Quain'tana knew about any of Sang's plots, we'll never know, as Suu'be again drew more attention and was more outwardly defiant. But...they were good fighters and commanders, so Quain had a reason to keep them both around. You don't have to like your soldiers to still respect their ability to fight, which is what the clan was all about. Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer, after all.

I do have to disagree, at least personally on Koil though - I read her as more of the unwitting person kind of shoved into a role she didn't want but who was prepared to try to take on the role for the sake of the clan. She seemed to just want to be a "regular soldier" but I would bet that half of her promotions (while deserved) might have been pushed by her ambitious mother. As for Koil tossing Ariel into the prison, that I think was more to keep her (as well as Riviel) out of the way since Quain was running rampant and carving her way through the home guard. She had just gotten back from "maneuvers" (at Sang's suggestion, to keep the troops occupied) and was still trying to figure out what was going on. She might have even hoped that putting Riviel and Ariel in the same cell would let them sort things out themselves, though it does seem more of a hasty decision. The other soldiers who were helping Riviel gang up on Ariel I think were locked up too - if they were all meant to kill Ariel, I don't think they would have all been split up two per cell.

Koil strikes me more as having been tossed into deep waters with little knowledge of ANYTHING going on, which is a problem in itself, and I think she got in over her head. Someone in that situation would be easy to manipulate, for sure, especially after Suu'be is killed right in front of her. I just think Koil wasn't...ready.


I think Kern wanted to keep Koil behaviour ambiguous as long as possible. She was pretty much an unknown variable... she showed utter loyalty to Quain, but she rarely expressed any ideas of her own beyond her claimed disinterest in politics... All those traits could have been faked; as a matter of fact, that would be the most intelligent thing to do, given the way her mother behaved...

It seems Koil really was a loyal Sarghess, but we had reasons to suspect her loyalty...
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 137

Postby Dybad » Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:37 am

So Sang was just faking it all along ? Man, she really faked it damn well considering what an utter piece of trash devoid of any redeeming quality she turns out to be ^ ^;

I mean, she's Snadya level in terms of morality but at least the latter is a lot smarter and better at keeping up appearences. You may (and definitely should) despise the person, but the sheer tactical/social skills and ice-cold level-headedness in almost every situation are still worthy of respect.

Sang has nothing going on for her, she's the kind of evil stupid enough to publicly show off how much of a gutless, despicable lowlife she is to her very own troups, mouthing about unity and strength while showing vileness and weakness at every turn.

How can she be so incredibly blind to her own self-destructive foolishness ?
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 137

Postby Moric » Thu Nov 15, 2018 2:30 am

Dybad wrote:So Sang was just faking it all along ? Man, she really faked it damn well considering what an utter piece of trash devoid of any redeeming quality she turns out to be ^ ^;

She managed military logistics and tactics quite well. That she decided to rise through treachery is hardly unique. Compared to the plots of the later Roman Republic and Empire, the Sarghress aren't all that bad.

Dybad wrote:I mean, she's Snadya level in terms of morality but at least the latter is a lot smarter and better at keeping up appearences. You may (and definitely should) despise the person, but the sheer tactical/social skills and ice-cold level-headedness in almost every situation are still worthy of respect.

Snadhya'rune is still far more wicked. Sang is ambitious, but doesn't plot genocide upon all but her choice sycophants.

Dybad wrote:Sang has nothing going on for her, she's the kind of evil stupid enough to publicly show off how much of a gutless, despicable lowlife she is to her very own troups, mouthing about unity and strength while showing vileness and weakness at every turn.

How can she be so incredibly blind to her own self-destructive foolishness ?

She is in an unusual situation with the duel. I don't doubt that she's proven valorous in the District War, and dozens of other times. That said, her manipulating did her no good here.
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 137

Postby Nothingness » Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:36 am

Doom Chinchilla wrote:
Quain allowed Suu'be, who couldn't stop herself from spewing traitorous crap and barely bothered to hide her intentions to get rid of Ariel while in front of Quain, to reach the rank of De'vess and commander of the Home Guard...

Sang is way more intelligent than Suu'be, she was able to play the loyal follower... So yes, I can see Quain overlooking Sang's ambition and treating her like an honored warrior...

The truth is, we never knew much about Sang. All she did was to support Quain's every decision (which would fit an ambitious manipulative schemer), smile and be nice to Ariel (which again, would fit a manipulative schemer) and send Ariel to quasi-suicidal missions...

We only saw what she wanted Quain and Ariel to see... So it's no wonder she looked good.


So I guess, in the end, Sang was a snake wearing a wolf's skin...which is pretty ironic seeing her loss of limbs, ending up a bit like an actual snake - so I guess if she turns into a worm/serpentine demon (like you suggested), it would be karmic transformation.

(Also, you people remember when people even fairly recently tried to claim Sang is a "true wolf"? That's very funny in context... *lol* )
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 137

Postby Margirita » Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:56 pm

Listen being sneaky and clever does not always make you a evil person.

Sang is a tiny little thing who was working for a 300lb angry hulk, of course she did what she could to keep her happy. I don't blame her for that.

- We don't know that she is working for Snad all we know for sure is that they are forfilling their part of the alliance. <For now, Sang may have planned to change things once her power was rooted in.>

- We know communications where cut off by someone. We think it may have been her but we have no solid proof.

- She is the type to get things done thru strat and a group, toe to toe fights do not suit her. It is her natural instinct to call for help doesn't make her a coward though. But it will bite her in the butt later.

I get the feeling that this stage was already pre-set and Sang is just a un-knowing pawn along with everyone else.
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 137

Postby Moric » Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:36 pm

Margirita wrote:Listen being sneaky and clever does not always make you a evil person.

Just as being a forthright and deliberate tyrant doesn't make one good. I suppose that we wouldn't blame Sang nearly as much were, instead of ambushing the Wolfpack and colonists, directly asserted that Sang was in charge, and Ariel and Kel'noz were to stand down and accept her supremacy in the Clan. Going in straight for the kill works so long as the propaganda narrative remains unperturbed.

Margirita wrote:Sang is a tiny little thing who was working for a 300lb angry hulk, of course she did what she could to keep her happy. I don't blame her for that.

She is also one of the original adventurers with Quain'tana. Just because the level 18 rogue can't take a level 20 barbarian in a straight fight inside said barbarian's anti-magic field doesn't mean that she's not to be feared in her own right. Nor does it mean that Quain'tana would, or perhaps could, rip her in two out of pique.

Margirita wrote:- She is the type to get things done thru strat and a group, toe to toe fights do not suit her. It is her natural instinct to call for help doesn't make her a coward though. But it will bite her in the butt later.

Oh, I am rather certain that she has been in the thick of melee any number of times, being in the Assault Legion. She doesn't welcome it like Quain'tana or Quill'yate, but she came prepared for action. Pity about those demons though...

Margirita wrote:I get the feeling that this stage was already pre-set and Sang is just a un-knowing pawn along with everyone else.

Snadhya'rune hastily shoves some papers into her desk drawer and asks, "Why is everyone looking at me?"

In all seriousness, interesting take. Snadhya'rune has been rather pleased to wreck Chel'el'Sussoloth far more than necessary to get what she wants.
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 137

Postby Irae Maeviir » Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:55 pm

It is true we might be painting Sang as a villain here when she is far from it, however some of her action of lack of actions make her look like it:
- Sang during this chapter is simply that she didn't try to talk, except when she demanded the full surrender of everybody (probably so they could get executed). Could you imagine what would happen if she just had said "Ok, why are you doing this? What's going on?". She doesn't even question how a rag tag bunch of "rebels" managed to get hold of an airship that shouldn't even have been there.
- She went straight for the death of members of her own clan and also whatever civilian caught in the crossfire in the Kyorl colony, sending wolves first. But then spared Felde even when the Feldians were shooting at them.
- She says they are rebels, but the truth is they have only been attacking Snadya's holdings.
- Also the timing of her attack makes me think that she was mobilized the moment the airship fell under Ariel's faction control. It does take time for news to reach Chel and also to move such a large army with so many heavy weapons. This makes it clear Snadya is the one who sent her.
- Not to mention the Anti-Val rethoric, while being loyal to Snadyarune, the most Val of all Vals, even if she claims she is not into the whole Val clan thing we can see many of the old Val clans are still alive and well in the Alliance.

A capable commander like Sang should be able to see that this is a loss-loss situation for her. If she gains the upper hand she would have lost loyal people to her in the fighting, while also killing people who were part of the clan to begin with. If Kel was just ignoring her they could have just done the same while fortifying their position in Chel and gaining even more recruits. If she loses, well... she loses everything. Snad does not reward failure.

She could have convinced Ariel to return to the clan. She could have asked Kel to advise her, like he did with her mother. She could have even kept the damn airship and have used it to carve an entire kingdom on the surface, away from the Val politics of Chel in the underground. But no, instead she used wolves to be her ambassadors.
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Re: Chapter 54 : page 137

Postby Dybad » Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:39 pm

Moric wrote:
Dybad wrote:So Sang was just faking it all along ? Man, she really faked it damn well considering what an utter piece of trash devoid of any redeeming quality she turns out to be ^ ^;

She managed military logistics and tactics quite well. That she decided to rise through treachery is hardly unique. Compared to the plots of the later Roman Republic and Empire, the Sarghress aren't all that bad.


I don't doubt she is technically skilled on a military level (athough she's so bad at leadership it's painful to watch even from the troops' perspectives), I mean the complete lack of honor, class or dignity of any kind. Snad may be a soulless monster, but she's a whole lot more subtle and charismatic, with about 20 times more self-control (though when she does snap she doesn't half-ass it ^ ^;). Sang on the other hand comes off as a dumb animal, every bit as primitive and short-sighted.

Moric wrote:
Dybad wrote:I mean, she's Snadya level in terms of morality but at least the latter is a lot smarter and better at keeping up appearences. You may (and definitely should) despise the person, but the sheer tactical/social skills and ice-cold level-headedness in almost every situation are still worthy of respect.

Snadhya'rune is still far more wicked. Sang is ambitious, but doesn't plot genocide upon all but her choice sycophants.


Oh, I really don't know about that. Sang's every word and action demonstrate she would do anything at any moment without hesitation if it registered in the "self-advancement" category ("I have nothing to gain", "he can't fight and neither can you", *random unprovoked attack on a civilian*, "dead people don't tell tales", etc.).

The Sarg as a whole are clearly nothing more than tools and servants in her eyes, I can't quite imagine her saying something along the lines of "oh no ! I can't do that even though it really benefits me, because that's just terrible !". Can you ?

She's every bit as selfish and greedy as Snad, she just lacks her coolness and intellect to pull off big bad plans.

Moric wrote:
Dybad wrote:Sang has nothing going on for her, she's the kind of evil stupid enough to publicly show off how much of a gutless, despicable lowlife she is to her very own troups, mouthing about unity and strength while showing vileness and weakness at every turn.

How can she be so incredibly blind to her own self-destructive foolishness ?

She is in an unusual situation with the duel. I don't doubt that she's proven valorous in the District War, and dozens of other times. That said, her manipulating did her no good here.


I mean she's basically discrediting herself more with every answer she gives and move she makes, like she didn't know her clan values strength of character in a leader rather than cheap vileness (the third pannel of page 132 says it all : "why aren't you guys approving of my refusing a challenge from a half-dead ennemy and attacking an unarmed civilian instead ??").

After over half a millenium of being led by a fearless goddess of war, it's crystal clear a gutter-level stand-in would not sit well well the troops, yet she shamelessly jumped right in again and again like she had no clue whatsoever ^ ^;
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