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Chapter 52 : page 20

Re: Chapter 52 : page 20

Postby Tainted Messiah » Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:11 am

Haha wow I was away for a couple days so I just caught up on the forum threads and wow people got toxic fast... agree with Canuck locking the thread but good to see forum members old and new can both get out of hand so quickly. XD

Oh and JungleFowl26, of course, I have read through this entire story multiple times or I wouldn't have said that. :P haha

BUT not going back to that now... we have a new page and now hints as to the future!

So Fame is on the surface now? as others have pointed out Kiel and them seemed to have a pretty sweet setup at the school I am guessing something has happened to change that or she wouldn't likely be on the surface... will be interesting to find out. My first assumption would just be that the school started up again but who knows until we get back down there.

And the only other real takeaway I have is the same as everyone else "If Koil Answers" which is of course super vague.. could just be that she can't due to issues at home or that she hates Ariel's guts.. could theorycraft on comments like that until the cows come home but I have a feeling we will find out much sooner than later... who knows maybe that sentient demon took over the whole Sarg clan and Ariel just doesn't know about it? *wee*

Not going to harp on it but obviously I am glad this whole disposable mob fight is over.. I will be curious to see what Kern has up his sleeve I mean it seems fairly late in the game with 3'ish chapters left to pull a time skip so I imagine he has something in mind and I can't wait to see what he does with all the pieces he left just 'out there' at the end of the previous one.


Seraphina126 wrote:I'm really disappointed nobody even took the effort to discuss the points I made in my long post in the previous thread. It's like people don't care...


Well for the record I read it all be it just now a few days late and you had a number of good points.. the thing to remember is that forums are not something anyone is forced to participate in they are generally only inhabited by a fairly small portion of the reader base. And most of those are people who really wish to participate in the community and tend to have well let's say 'stronger' feelings about various aspects of the comic.

What that ultimately means is that no one is required to respond to anything and admittedly a lot of people are less likely to respond to people who do not conform to their viewpoint ( right or wrong as that may be ). Doesn't take away your right to say it and sometimes you will find people that either agree with you or at least want to participate in a discussion and others you won't but I wouldn't take it as a personal slight.

But and I do say this as someone who can be one of the more critical people of certain aspects to Kern's work here is you do need to be respectful that's why I cut off your quote where I did claiming someone just wants to 'drool over' something doesn't foster conversation haha

Take it or leave it just food for thought.. just saw your comment while scanning through and felt like I should respond something back :)
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Re: Chapter 52 : page 20

Postby Basileus_Ioannis » Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:26 am

Pardon the critique, but I agree with those of you who feel the battle was too short and the Drow didn't seem to suffer enough casualties. As a matter of fact, the way the colony buildings are still standing despite being on fire seems to accentuate the brevity of the attack (that, and the fact that we didn't see the sun set during the battle, no night scenes, which makes it feel like it was a matter of a few minutes). It would have helped to show multiple vignettes, some in daylight, some at night, some in rain/snow, some clear. Those environmental aspects add implied time, so you can squeeze a days/weeks/months-long siege into 20 pages

If feasible, it probably would have been better to show more nameless mooks in each panel, sparingly sprinkled with named characters and cameos. That way, in a battle scene, you can see the bodies hit da floor, on both sides. But when almost every panel is replete with cameos and named characters, with a dearth of unnamed faceless mooks, it's harder to show Drow casualties (which was not an issue in chapter 50's siege of Snad's tower-o-surprises). More Drow mooks might have alleviated the impression that the Drow weren't suffering losses like the Hermionne were

I feel that named characters and cameos don't have to do much of the dying for the sake of the storyline. Once in a while adds feels, but they have more pressing tasks to do (portraying the survivors and the aftermath). It's the important job of the faceless, nameless mook to pick up the slack and give witness to the many, many casualties that invariably happen in the heat of war. Look at the Battle of Helm's Deep in LOTR: The Two Towers (aka Battle of the Hornburg in the book). Of the named characters, I believe only Haldir of Lothlorien (the elf commander) died, everybody else who died was a nameless mook (in the book, Haldir was not present, instead Hama of Rohan died at this battle, in the movie Hama had died in the attack of the Worg riders on the way). What do you think?
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Re: Chapter 52 : page 20

Postby Rodryg » Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:45 am

I dont think we would need to see "siege timeskip" that would take months a few days would be most of it if this was the ending of long siege we could get something like day long fight.
Also remember we only see a portion of the colony who knows how long Hermoinne were shooting ? But I agree with fire normally it would be dangerous thing but hey a few drows with fire affinity can extinguish it without problems.

I agree with the lack of nameless mooks on drow side that was my point in the previous pages we are told the battle was brutal and dangerous to drows. First pages got me excited as it looked good but then when the real fight started we seen the brutality but with Hermoinnes on the reciving end. That makes hard to belive the drow were the losing side when we only get a few deaths on their side, while Hermoinnes were droping like flys left and right :c

Lets hope next pages will show how hard the colony was hit by this "siege".
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Re: Chapter 52 : page 20

Postby Zarannya » Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:28 am

I think for me, the most jarring thing was the lack of buildup to this particular attack. Maybe some shots of the other colonies in ruins or under attack might have helped the beginning pages a little, to sort of set the tone for how grim things have been. This felt more like an opening salvo versus just another in a long string of raids and attacks, and sort of just came out of nowhere.

The aftermath scene here I think does a better job of setting the overall tone than the opening pages did - we see a better example of the overall damage, and the emotions are portrayed better. I think the panel with Fame and her little friend stumbling across the dying horse was particularly telling.

I also agree that there probably needed to be more on screen casualties if we're to be given the idea that this was a costly battle. The impression that I got was that both sides got off pretty light, but Kern was trying to show that the colonies were hit pretty hard. It's hard to imagine that there were that many losses on either side with what's been shown so far.

I'm also curious to find out where the Highland Raiders have been during this "siege."
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Re: Chapter 52 : page 20

Postby Dalvyserran » Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:10 am

It has always been a problem of properly displaying the cost of war for the Sarghress. For example, while we were getting a plethora of scenes filled with how the Sharen suffered due to hubris & being overwhelmed, Sarghress casualties, starvation from the food shortage, and even troop infighting were only mentioned in passing.

Not even our group of evil Sarghress cameos went very far; the handful of us purposely made bad eggs in response to the flood of "good guys" that keep getting promoted in the narrative. I'd say only Riviel made any impact, but even she is no match for the ridiculously Mary-Sue-ish Ariel plot shield. The rest of it was just embarassing and quite frankly, angering. How is it that four trained warriors completely ignore Faen scooting past them? The fuck? *upset*

This always made me dislike how the Sarghress always, always, always receive preferential treatment in the story plots, despite the odds logically being stacked against them.

Now, pertaining to current pages: The opening pages for this siege could have been handled better, yes, but people also need to keep in mind how difficult it is to draw war scenes like this. But still, what could have been done better:

--Show how the Hermionne outnumbered the defenders, because while we see a lot of faceless looks, we don't see enough of what they do to the Drow.

--Explain briefly why the Hermionne are attacking, because we know from previous pages that this is supposed to be frequent. But WHY did they decide to bring such a large army this time?

--Dedicate a page towards why the non-Sarghress cameos are there. I expected an early explanation showing Zala'ess or somebody offering incentives for settling the colony. My Vel'Sharen is NOT there out of charity, and I am 90% sure that the others are in the same boat.

--This is a personal one for me, but why did they get pushed into Machike and not one of the more well-funded and equipped Illhar'dro colonies? No mention whatsoever of that. If I recall, the Sarghress are still poor, still starving, and not easily swayed from their Val-hating path in a mere 3 years.
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Re: Chapter 52 : page 20

Postby Basileus_Ioannis » Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:54 am

Eesh, sorry for the wall-o-text 8P
Rodryg wrote:I dont think we would need to see "siege timeskip" that would take months a few days would be most of it if this was the ending of long siege we could get something like day long fight.
Yep, "siege timeskip" is only to show that this wasn't a one-hour picnic. I mention it because when it's daylight out in every scene for 20 pages, the reader is left thinking it's the same day, or even the same hour of that one day. Perhaps the first pages (against the Emberi colonists) could have been done at first light, then this page could have shown a setting sun, or orange skies, to show the passing of time. Otherwise it's like "we came, we saw, we got our assets handed to us" Image
Rodryg wrote:Also remember we only see a portion of the colony who knows how long Hermoinne were shooting ? But I agree with fire normally it would be dangerous thing but hey a few drows with fire affinity can extinguish it without problems.
The burning buildings are notable that they were set afire by the Hermionne in the first couple pages. The fact that they're STILL burning on page 20 means elapsed time is probably only a few hours at most, and not more than a day where they would have been reduced to charred remains since nobody would be putting the fires out during the fightImage
Zarannya wrote:I think for me, the most jarring thing was the lack of buildup to this particular attack. Maybe some shots of the other colonies in ruins or under attack might have helped the beginning pages a little, to sort of set the tone for how grim things have been. This felt more like an opening salvo versus just another in a long string of raids and attacks, and sort of just came out of nowhere.
And if Machike's seen repeated Hermionne incursions, what would be the logical thing to do? Post watch towers, or patrol the countryside. Two simple panels could have done it: 1. wolf rider comes in at full run, rider yelling at a watch tower who starts beating on an alarm bell; 2. rider runs into the fort, says breathlessly to Kel and Ariel, "The goblins...they come!" That's all you need before you see the boots squishing that yellow flower, IMHO B)
Zarannya wrote:The aftermath scene here I think does a better job of setting the overall tone than the opening pages did - we see a better example of the overall damage, and the emotions are portrayed better. I think the panel with Fame and her little friend stumbling across the dying horse was particularly telling.
Absolutely, those are gritty, telling scenes. Sorn mourning the loss of Baef over two panels was well done, too :(
Zarannya wrote:I also agree that there probably needed to be more on screen casualties if we're to be given the idea that this was a costly battle. The impression that I got was that both sides got off pretty light, but Kern was trying to show that the colonies were hit pretty hard. It's hard to imagine that there were that many losses on either side with what's been shown so far.
Yeah, it must be (unseen) outlying communities that got hit hardest, because Vaelia's neighborhood on this page looks like it survived, the few fires looking manageable. The biggest losses seem to have been incurred by the Locusts, almost all of their hives being knocked over and appropriated as trebuchet stones (and we only see one survivor so far, hopefully there will be many more who managed to flee) *upset*
Zarannya wrote:I'm also curious to find out where the Highland Raiders have been during this "siege."
Yeah, me too. We have yet to see Aunty Quill, but there was at least one wolf towards the end of this battle
Dalvyserran wrote:The opening pages for this siege could have been handled better, yes, but people also need to keep in mind how difficult it is to draw war scenes like this. But still, what could have been done better:

--Show how the Hermionne outnumbered the defenders, because while we see a lot of faceless looks, we don't see enough of what they do to the Drow.
True. Perhaps a map view, with counters representing a given number of troops, would have been a good visual aid. The map we last saw back in chapter 47 or so was truly useful in giving a snapshot of clan dispositions and stuff. Then again, if Kern only intended this Hermionne "siege" to be a representation of the dangers the surface world presents, then there's no need to go into such detail, as this truly was a prelude to the main event to follow B)
Dalvy wrote:--Explain briefly why the Hermionne are attacking, because we know from previous pages that this is supposed to be frequent. But WHY did they decide to bring such a large army this time?
I agree, the why of it is missing, making the siege feel like a randomly generated wilderness encounter ("Oh crap, I rolled a 20...what does the encounter table say?" *doh* "Ah...20...is a 10,000 man Hermionne army with 100 heavy cavalry, a battery of trebuchets and one Blunt Cannon." :@ "A blunt whaaat?" *oops* )
Dalvy wrote:--Dedicate a page towards why the non-Sarghress cameos are there. I expected an early explanation showing Zala'ess or somebody offering incentives for settling the colony. My Vel'Sharen is NOT there out of charity, and I am 90% sure that the others are in the same boat.
Yes, I agree we need a page-o-splainin'. My hypothesis is that since the clans basically agreed that the Sarghress would be the gendarmes to serve all the clans, perhaps they also determined that surface colonies would no longer be clan specific but collectivized? Because I don't think I've seen a single Sarghress flag or banner this whole chapter, just Durlyn's spear and Ariel's armor. Ariel is still the Ill'haress of the Sarghress, and thus military commander, and Kel'noz the commandant of Machike'Shikumo and Fustin'darun, but the impression I get is that the defenders and colonists belong to Machike as a whole rather than the Sarghress clan
Dalvy wrote:--This is a personal one for me, but why did they get pushed into Machike and not one of the more well-funded and equipped Illhar'dro colonies? No mention whatsoever of that. If I recall, the Sarghress are still poor, still starving, and not easily swayed from their Val-hating path in a mere 3 years.
See previous, I bet all colonies have been collectivized, and this one is important because it sits at one of the entrances to the Underworld. Perhaps other characters have been dispatched to other former-clan-specific colonies...
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Re: Chapter 52 : page 20

Postby SFI » Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:12 am

Basileus_Ioannis wrote:
Dalvy wrote:--This is a personal one for me, but why did they get pushed into Machike and not one of the more well-funded and equipped Illhar'dro colonies? No mention whatsoever of that. If I recall, the Sarghress are still poor, still starving, and not easily swayed from their Val-hating path in a mere 3 years.
See previous, I bet all colonies have been collectivized, and this one is important because it sits at one of the entrances to the Underworld. Perhaps other characters have been dispatched to other former-clan-specific colonies...


Also, didn't a lot of the Non-Machike colonies get wrecked pre-this-timeskip? The caravans of food from the Ill'hardro-colonies were at least delayed in the first few chapters after the previous timeskip (with one confirmed destroyed) and Salandara had to go check on the Sullisin'rune-colonies because they had gone silent (One also confirmed destroyed and Ash being certain the others were too).

Considering drow need mana-pools, I daresay it will take longer than three years to rebuild a working colony, especially with the Hermoine-threat being a real problem for a place-in-progress and hence protectors/protection-in-progress.

Machike might be well one of few working colonies left at this point.
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Re: Chapter 52 : page 20

Postby Basileus_Ioannis » Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:50 am

SFI wrote:Also, didn't a lot of the Non-Machike colonies get wrecked pre-this-timeskip? The caravans of food from the Ill'hardro-colonies were at least delayed in the first few chapters after the previous timeskip (with one confirmed destroyed) and Salandara had to go check on the Sullisin'rune-colonies because they had gone silent (One also confirmed destroyed and Ash being certain the others were too).

Considering drow need mana-pools, I daresay it will take longer than three years to rebuild a working colony, especially with the Hermoine-threat being a real problem for a place-in-progress and hence protectors/protection-in-progress.

Machike might be well one of few working colonies left at this point.
Good points, all this time we thought the colonies were being destroyed by either the Highland Raiders or the Nidraa'chal and their gunship, but perhaps even 3 years ago, some of the colonies were being destroyed by Hermionne probing attacks :A Yes, only colonies with Drow garrisons, like Machike and Dariya'ko, might have survived if the Hermionne overran those colonies (I hope Master Lioshi and his Kyorl outpost are okay)
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